How to run a wing?

On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan wrote:


As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
(though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).


If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?

I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
practical at these.

Derek C

On Jul 13, 1:33*am, Derek C wrote:
On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan wrote:



As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
(though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).

If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?

I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
practical at these.

Derek C

As a tow pilot I'm looking for a rudder wag, radio call and or arm
signal from the wingrunner that the sailplane is ready to launch.
Lifting up the wing is gonna make me think that the glider's almost
ready but until I see a positive launch signal I'm gonna be
waitin' (and wondering if none of the three launch signals are
forthcoming).

On Jul 13, 3:14*pm, 150flivver wrote:
On Jul 13, 1:33*am, Derek C wrote:





On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan wrote:

As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
(though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).

If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?

I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
practical at these.

Derek C

As a tow pilot I'm looking for a rudder wag, radio call and or arm
signal from the wingrunner that the sailplane is ready to launch.
Lifting up the wing is gonna make me think that the glider's almost
ready but until I see a positive launch signal I'm gonna be
waitin' (and wondering if none of the three launch signals are
forthcoming).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This was what I was taught to do: Once the pilot signals readiness by
giving me a thumbs up, I raise the wing to a wings level condition.
After the wing is level, I allow it to climb or descend, to cue the
pilot that he needs to apply some aileron to hold the wings level. If
the pilot doesn't get the clue, and the takeoff roll starts, I was
taught again to allow the wing to move up or down SOME. Most pilots
'get it' at this point, and start flying the wing.
When I'm flying the glider, I prefer the wing runner to hold the wing
as lightly as possible. If there's a significant headwind, I often
wave off the wing runner altogether.
My pet 'wing runner' peave: Wing runners that 'help' by pushing
forward on the wing tip.

On Jul 13, 1:33 am, Derek wrote:
On Jul 13, 12:31 am, Bob wrote:

As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
(though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).

If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?


Certainly a theoretical possibility (prematurely losing contact between
palm and wing undersurface, I mean)...this is an example of one of the
Devil's details noted in a previous post.

That said, all I can relate is my experience and an observation, neither
of which unequivocally answers your question.

In my experience (both as a wing runner and glider guider), neither
proposed possibility has ever occurred. Perhaps it's because - when
aerodynamically moving a glider wingtip is under consideration - tip
movement can't happen 'instantaneously'. Personally, I don't put my palm
beneath the wing's undersurface until the glider, glider pilot and I are
all ready to go; prior to that I'm engaging the wingtip by whatever
method I need to in order to achieve whatever it is I'm trying to
accomplish (e.g. lifting the tip off the ground...which I generally do
by grasping the leading edge of the wing; balancing w. partial water,
etc.). It's while doing these preliminaries I get a sense for how much
of an impact (or not) the existing wind/gust field is likely to have. As
noted, gusts have never been an issue for me - as a launcher or launchee.

Nor - by the time I've got the wing in place atop my palm - has any
tug's propwash ever been an issue. The only times I've witnessed
propwash affecting the glider a 1) about the time power is added to
take 'the bulk of' the slack out after the tug has completed positioning
itself (more or less) directly ahead of the glider, and 2) well after
the wingtip has been pulled forward/away-from my palm. In the former
instance, if I'm by a wingtip when it lifts from the ground, I generally
slide my foot beneath it to lessen any graceless 'concrete whap' which
might otherwise occur, while in the latter I've (definitionally) done
all I can do.

YMMV.

In any event, there's definitely more to wing running than would seem to
be the case to an uninformed, casual observer!

Bob W.

Method 1 – Runner stands outboard of wing tip facing in the direction
of launch and holding the wing tip trailing edge with the hand nearest
the glider.

Method 2 – Runner stands close behind the wing just inboard of the
wing tip and holds the trailing edge of the wing with both hands.

I missed this thread--which was sparked by an experience at this
year's US Std/Open Nationals--at the time but I just had to add yet
another note...from a different perspective. I received the worst wing
run I've had in many years on the practice day, which admittedly also
involved a stiff 90 degree crosswind and partial water, and ground off
a good bit of the rubber tip skid. So the next day I declined the line
crew's offer and, instead, gave a careful briefing in Method 1 to my
daughter, Tina who, while a XC and track runner, had never run a wing
before. She did an outstanding job and was soon quite in demand from
other pilots on the grid. The biggest problem was someone who "re-
educated" her the next day in Method 2. She was fast enough as a
runner that it worked for her. But I still disagreed it was the best
method. Unfortunately her "mentor" had been so persuasive that it took
me a while to convince her that my 45 years in soaring were sufficient
to qualify me on this point. She's 16; why should she believe anything
I say?

Ultimately I talked to the organizers and explained the problem. My
biggest concern wasn't that one person was out there running wings the
"wrong" way but that an entire line crew had been instructed to do so.
To their great credit, their reaction was to hang a safety vest on
Tina and induct her into the line crew. She didn't do any training
while we languished in the monsoon that was Hobbs 2010 but she got her
workouts in anyway running a lot of wings--using Method 1.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
USA

On Jul 13, 4:46*pm, Grider Pirate wrote:
On Jul 13, 3:14*pm, 150flivver wrote:



On Jul 13, 1:33*am, Derek C wrote:

On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan wrote:

As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
(though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).

If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?

I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
practical at these.

Derek C

As a tow pilot I'm looking for a rudder wag, radio call and or arm
signal from the wingrunner that the sailplane is ready to launch.
Lifting up the wing is gonna make me think that the glider's almost
ready but until I see a positive launch signal I'm gonna be
waitin' (and wondering if none of the three launch signals are
forthcoming).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This was what I was taught to do: *Once the pilot signals readiness by
giving me a thumbs up, I raise the wing to a wings level condition.
After the wing is level, I allow it to climb or descend, to cue the
pilot that he needs to apply some aileron to hold the wings level. *If
the pilot doesn't get the clue, and the takeoff roll starts, I was
taught again to allow the wing to move up or down SOME. *Most pilots
'get it' at this point, and start flying the wing.
When I'm flying the glider, I prefer the wing runner to hold the wing
as lightly as possible. *If there's a significant headwind, I often
wave off the wing runner altogether.
My pet 'wing runner' peave: Wing runners that 'help' by pushing
forward on the wing tip.

On Sunday, I flew 12 CAP Cadet orientation rides in an ASK-21. The
Cadets only training for wing running was the on-line wing runner
course they swore they had taken before hand. They had never touched
a glider before.

I added one additional instruction to what they had learned. Instead
of holding the wings "level", I told them to BALANCE the glider with
their fingertips wherever it needed to be so there was no up or down
force on the wing tip. They were to run the wing at the angle where
it balanced. LEVEL was not applicable or important.

In cooperation with the wing runners, I placed the stick in the exact
center by reference to a mark on the instrument panel and held it
there as long as the wing runner held the wing.

I got 12 ABSOLUTELY PERFECT wing runs. In most cases, I didn't have
to move the stick until the glider was airborne. I didn't care what
hand they used or where they stood as long as they were safely outside/
behind the wing tip. In fact, they don't even have to run at all if
the glider starts out balanced - it'll take long enough for a wing to
fall, the glider will have plenty of airspeed before any aileron is
needed.

On Jul 14, 9:59*pm, Bob Whelan wrote:
On Jul 13, 1:33 am, Derek *wrote:
On Jul 13, 12:31 am, Bob *wrote:

As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
(though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).

If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?

Certainly a theoretical possibility (prematurely losing contact between
palm and wing undersurface, I mean)...this is an example of one of the
Devil's details noted in a previous post.

That said, all I can relate is my experience and an observation, neither
of which unequivocally answers your question.

In my experience (both as a wing runner and glider guider), neither
proposed possibility has ever occurred. Perhaps it's because - when
aerodynamically moving a glider wingtip is under consideration - tip
movement can't happen 'instantaneously'. Personally, I don't put my palm
beneath the wing's undersurface until the glider, glider pilot and I are
all ready to go; prior to that I'm engaging the wingtip by whatever
method I need to in order to achieve whatever it is I'm trying to
accomplish (e.g. lifting the tip off the ground...which I generally do
by grasping the leading edge of the wing; balancing w. partial water,
etc.). It's while doing these preliminaries I get a sense for how much
of an impact (or not) the existing wind/gust field is likely to have. As
noted, gusts have never been an issue for me - as a launcher or launchee.

Nor - by the time I've got the wing in place atop my palm - has any
tug's propwash ever been an issue. The only times I've witnessed
propwash affecting the glider a 1) about the time power is added to
take 'the bulk of' the slack out after the tug has completed positioning
itself (more or less) directly ahead of the glider, and 2) well after
the wingtip has been pulled forward/away-from my palm. In the former
instance, if I'm by a wingtip when it lifts from the ground, I generally
slide my foot beneath it to lessen any graceless 'concrete whap' which
might otherwise occur, while in the latter I've (definitionally) done
all I can do.

YMMV.

In any event, there's definitely more to wing running than would seem to
be the case to an uninformed, casual observer!

Bob W.

Have you ever launched behind a PZL Wilga or similar radial engined
tug with a huge slow running propeller. The prop wash can be
horrendous and can easily force a wingtip onto the ground when the
wingtip runner lets go, or even while he is still holding it! The
resting on the palm technique probably won't work in this case.

Derek C

On Aug 10, 8:36*pm, bildan wrote:
On Jul 13, 4:46*pm, Grider Pirate wrote:





On Jul 13, 3:14*pm, 150flivver wrote:

On Jul 13, 1:33*am, Derek C wrote:

On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan wrote:

As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
(though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).

If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?

I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
practical at these.

Derek C

As a tow pilot I'm looking for a rudder wag, radio call and or arm
signal from the wingrunner that the sailplane is ready to launch.
Lifting up the wing is gonna make me think that the glider's almost
ready but until I see a positive launch signal I'm gonna be
waitin' (and wondering if none of the three launch signals are
forthcoming).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This was what I was taught to do: *Once the pilot signals readiness by
giving me a thumbs up, I raise the wing to a wings level condition.
After the wing is level, I allow it to climb or descend, to cue the
pilot that he needs to apply some aileron to hold the wings level. *If
the pilot doesn't get the clue, and the takeoff roll starts, I was
taught again to allow the wing to move up or down SOME. *Most pilots
'get it' at this point, and start flying the wing.
When I'm flying the glider, I prefer the wing runner to hold the wing
as lightly as possible. *If there's a significant headwind, I often
wave off the wing runner altogether.
My pet 'wing runner' peave: Wing runners that 'help' by pushing
forward on the wing tip.

On Sunday, I flew 12 CAP Cadet orientation rides in an ASK-21. *The
Cadets only training for wing running was the on-line wing runner
course they swore they had taken before hand. *They had never touched
a glider before.

I added one additional instruction to what they had learned. *Instead
of holding the wings "level", I told them to BALANCE the glider with
their fingertips wherever it needed to be so there was no up or down
force on the wing tip. *They were to run the wing at the angle where
it balanced. *LEVEL was not applicable or important.

In cooperation with the wing runners, I placed the stick in the exact
center by reference to a mark on the instrument panel and held it
there as long as the wing runner held the wing.

I got 12 ABSOLUTELY PERFECT wing runs. *In most cases, I didn't have
to move the stick until the glider was airborne. *I didn't care what
hand they used or where they stood as long as they were safely outside/
behind the wing tip. *In fact, they don't even have to run at all if
the glider starts out balanced - it'll take long enough for a wing to
fall, the glider will have plenty of airspeed before any aileron is
needed.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Obviously no crosswinds, gusts or thermals on that day? The ASK-21 has
plenty of mass and stability, so it is the best possible candidate for
this technique. May not work quite as well for many single seaters,
especially if carrying water ballast, or if you have a tug aircraft
that generates a lot of propwash (e.g PZL Wiga).

Derek C

On 8/10/2010 10:07 PM, Derek C wrote:

Snipperoo...

YMMV.

In any event, there's definitely more to wing running than would seem to
be the case to an uninformed, casual observer!

Bob W.

Have you ever launched behind a PZL Wilga or similar radial engined
tug with a huge slow running propeller. The prop wash can be
horrendous and can easily force a wingtip onto the ground when the
wingtip runner lets go, or even while he is still holding it! The
resting on the palm technique probably won't work in this case.

Derek C

The devil is indeed in the details! (Hey! Who said that earlier?!?)

Regrettably, radial engines are pretty rare in the U.S. anymore, at least as
glider tugs go. Though I know the U.S. community has broken more than one
Wilga in tug service, I've never had the opportunity to see a Wilga in the
flesh, or, towed/launched-anyone behind a radial - any radial.

(In fact, I've met but one glider-guider who's towed behind a radial, and that
was a 400hp Stearman pulling a 1-26 [back in the early 1970's]. The low-time
pilot said the climb angle was startlingly/impressively steep, and the 2,000'
agl tow breathtakingly short!)

Bob W.

"bildan" wrote in message
:

On Jul 12, 10:30*am, Bart wrote:
On Jul 11, 2:01*am, Bruce Hoult wrote:

I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a
substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep
the forces neutral.

If I feel pressure on the wingtip while the slack is being taken up
then I allow the tip to go markedly high or low until the pilot
notices the glider is not level and applies the appropriate aileron.

That's what I like as a pilot, and that's how I will run a wing,
unless the glider pilot requests a different technique.

B.

I observed this example.

The pilot was holding full left aileron against a very light (2 - 3
Kt.) left crosswind component making the tip very heavy. The wing
runner, on the left wing, allowed the wing to go to the ground
whereupon the pilot jerked his thumb up indicating he wanted the wing
raised all the while still holding full left aileron.

The wing runner did his best but when the wing was released, it
slammed down and the glider ground looped. The pilot jumped out and
ran back demanding to know why the wing runner didn't know his job.

The group of observers tried to tell the pilot it was his fault for
holding left aileron but he insisted that was the right thing to do
and it wasn't his fault. He had a very hard time finding willing wing
runners after that.

My take home: If I were the pilot, I'd center the stick and let the
wing runner do the job right. If I were the runner, I'd just put the
wing down and walk away.


If the pilot is not correcting properly when I have the wing "leveled",
I will allow the wing to rise or drop according to what it wants to do
so that the pilot will realize that he had the wrong inputs into the
stick. Seems to work every time.

Larry