Puchacz New Cautionary Tale/Tail

On Mon, 06 Sep 2010 21:09:55 -0700, GARY BOGGS wrote:

How could you fly a glider without a rudder and not be able to tell
something is very wrong????

I'd rephrase that as "How could you fly a Puchacz without a rudder and
not notice?" because its rudder is enormous and has considerably higher
pedal pressures than any other glider I've flown.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Sep 7, 6:37*pm, danlj wrote:
On Sep 7, 7:46*am, JC wrote:

On Sep 7, 1:09*am, GARY BOGGS wrote:

How could you fly a glider without a rudder and not be able to tell
something is very wrong????...clip...

Boggs

I agree with Gary.. How could the pilot not notice the rudder is gone?
Our club DG200 had the rudder pop out on a winch launch and it fell
back and hung from the rudder cables. The pilot felt both pedals go
forward and get stuck. He completed the launch and from the ground he
was told that his rudder came off so he made gentle turns and landed
without trouble....clip...

We don't recognize when something has gone wrong with the rudder
because
*a - we normally don't practice not having a rudder
*b - really don't understand, in the seat of our pants, what it feels
like not to have one
So -- all we know at first is that *something is wrong*. (Note that
Juan Carlos points out that the pilot was TOLD his rudder was off.)
What that *something* is, ain't all that obvious. This is true for
MOST airplane malfunctions, not just rudder malfunctions. And the
emotional upset ("alarm") that we feel during the event hinders
rational analysis.

I speak as an expert, having once many years ago flown a Blanik L-13
with the rudder cables reversed. All I could tell was the rudder
*wasn't working*. So I put my feet on the floor. Which worked fine
until they quietly snuck back onto the pedals during the turn from
base to final. My personal mantra, "Speed is my friend" saved the day.

(Then, after the repair, one of us five guys who'd all missed the
rudder reversal, found the safety missing from the castellated nut
underneath the elevator bell crank and saved someone's life. An
airplane flies awkwardly but safely without a good rudder, but the
pilot dies without an elevator.)

DJ

After finding the rudder missing are new seat cushions also on order?

On Sep 6, 6:50*pm, CindyB wrote:
Folks:

You will not yet find this on any accident/incident reports.
There were no fatalities.

*A pilot called me to relay this story.
The SZD-50-3 Puchacsz was bought used from Europe and
imported to the US with ~1900 hours. The glider was given a US
airworthiness inspection, and licensed by an FAA
inspector last week Thursday or so. *It went into legal service
before the weekend.

On Saturday, following only a few flights, the pilot felt some
restriction in rudder movement, and asked the front seat passenger
to adjust the length of rudder stirrups for more freedom of movement.
The passenger complied, and free movement was "restored."

The flight continued in nice lift, and some mild maneuvers
for perhaps twenty five more minutes prior to landing.
As the glider came to a halt, the ground personnel roared up to the
cockpit
and informed the pilot that there was no rudder on the machine.
All parties were amazed.

A search by air for the missing rudder were fruitless.
I have not seen the Puchacsz.
I do not have pictures or links to any photos.
I cannot comment on the mode of departure.
I do not know if the cables or swedges and thimbles are on
the machine, nor if the vertical hinges are in place on
the rear face of the vertical fin.

I do know there was a mandatory service item to replace the
rudder stop elastic nut on the bottom bolt with a castelated nut
and safety key. *I cannot say if this was done, found, gone or
otherwise on the machine in question.

I do know that you should look at the attachments of
controls and moving parts fully and carefully on each
pre-flight inspection. *Things change and move over time.

The pilot in this case asked me to put the information out
to the soaring community, PRIOR to any formal incident
investigation, to prevent any possible similar occurrence.

Cindy Brickner
Southern Californiawww.caracole-soaring.com

Just for your information, before you so blatantly post such rude and
one sided statements, you should know that this pilot in particular
(whose identity is no secret to me) has a track record of severe
damage and abuse to not only this new ship that came from Europe, but
also to many other ships owned by the club as well. He is subject to
suspension from the club.
As a primary witness of that day, I saw that he repeatedly and
severely over-rotated the glider during take-off, and was sure to
smash the tail to the asphalt concrete after every landing. He was
instructed numerous times to fix this behavior. And before hand there
was even a 2 HOUR training session, which should have clearly let any
pilot there know how you should and should not handle this new glider.
He is known in our club for his poor glider handling skills, prior
damage to our Grob-103 (twice), severe tail damage to our Junior, and
at this point his carelessness that has led to his denial of being
such an inadequate pilot in the first place.
He is aspiring to become a glider instructor and to this I must say,
GOOD LUCK!
All the Puchacz AD's were completed by authorized shops in Europe.
There is an FAA investigation in process. We are following all and any
rules, so any statement made to the contrary, is extremely incorrect.
But what I have to say in accordance to this post, is that it was
immature and premature to have posted this at all. Ed S. is no saint
in the soaring community and if that is your perception on the man
after his phone call to "alert" the community and "save the Puchacz's
and their users", I can honestly say that you are all VERY mistaken.
Best Regards, Blue Skies and Happy Soaring to all

FWIW, I don't see anything rude or one-sided in the text you quoted.
No opinions or conclusions, just a "heads up". Maybe the pilot is as
bad as you say. Maybe not. I see this a stark reminder to complete a
good pre-flight just in case damage happened on the previous
flight.

I have quite a few hours in the back seat of a Puchacz, and like some
other posters suspect that the story as related to Cindy is somewhat
suspect. For example:

On Saturday, following only a few flights, the pilot felt some
restriction in rudder movement, and asked the front seat passenger
to adjust the length of rudder stirrups for more freedom of movement.
The passenger complied, and free movement was "restored."

Altering the front pedals merely lengthens or shortens the cable
connecting front and rear pedals - the cable which actuates the rudder
runs from the rear pedals to the rudder fittings. The only restriction
this change could affect would be that of the front pilot's feet on
the pedals.

Also the Puchacz is not strongly directionally stable even with the
rudder attached. With it missing, I'm sure the glider would have been
wallowing around the sky and clearly have felt utterly wrong, even
when attempting to fly straight. If:

The flight continued in nice lift, and some mild maneuvers
for perhaps twenty five more minutes prior to landing.

without a rudder, the pilot must have been flying in boxing gloves not
to notice something was very wrong.

I'm not saying the rudder didn't fall off, but I don't find the
"decorative" parts of the story convincing.

Just for your information, before you so blatantly post such rude and
one sided statements, you should know that this pilot in particular
(whose identity is no secret to me) has a track record of severe
damage and abuse to not only this new ship that came from Europe, but
also to many other ships owned by the club as well. He is subject to
suspension from the club.
As a primary witness of that day, I saw that he repeatedly and
severely over-rotated the glider during take-off, and was sure to
smash the tail to the asphalt concrete after every landing. He was
instructed numerous times to fix this behavior. And before hand there
was even a 2 HOUR training session, which should have clearly let any
pilot there know how you should and should not handle this new glider.
He is known in our club for his poor glider handling skills, prior
damage to our Grob-103 (twice), severe tail damage to our Junior, and
at this point his carelessness that has led to his denial of being
such an inadequate pilot in the first place.
He is aspiring to become a glider instructor and to this I must say,
GOOD LUCK!
All the Puchacz AD's were completed by authorized shops in Europe.
There is an FAA investigation in process. We are following all and any
rules, so any statement made to the contrary, is extremely incorrect.
But what I have to say in accordance to this post, is that it was
immature and premature to have posted this at all. Ed S. is no saint
in the soaring community and if that is your perception on the man
after his phone call to "alert" the community and "save the Puchacz's
and their users", I can honestly say that you are all VERY mistaken.
Best Regards, Blue Skies and Happy Soaring to all - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've read many posts from Cindy. Not one of them were ever "blatantly
rude or one-sided". Dude, take a deep breath and check your attitude a
little. That was way off base.

On 9/8/2010 12:19 AM, F-U-Ed. wrote:
On Sep 6, 6:50 pm, wrote:
Folks:
Snip...

You will not yet find this on any accident/incident reports.
Cindy Brickner
Southern Californiawww.caracole-soaring.com

Just for your information, before you so blatantly post such rude and
one sided statements, you should know

[The alleged pilot] is no saint
in the soaring community and if that is your perception on the man
after his phone call to "alert" the community and "save the Puchacz's
and their users", I can honestly say that you are all VERY mistaken.
Best Regards, Blue Skies and Happy Soaring to all

Hmmm...of the two posts, the first one seems distinctly less overwrought than
the second one...but there IS a factual error in the first one. You CAN find a
listing of the incident in the preliminary FAA daily accident/incident data at...

http://www.faa.gov/data_research/acc...a/A_0907_N.txt

Within a few weeks it can be expected to show up as an NTSB Preliminary
Report, too.

I for one would much prefer to be alerted to incidents as these than to remain
in wondering ignorance. And while I'd also like to know more about the
individual pilots involved (because it may well influence my personal
conclusions about any incident...and personal conclusions about others'
misfortunes are always my own goal when it comes to my own future flight
safety), I recognize that generally only thos who know/knew the pilot(s)
involved are privy to such intensely personal information. Such is the way of
the world and human nature...

Regards,
Bob W.

P.S. For those paying attention to publicly available information, 2010 has
become a genuinely statistically bad year for U.S. soaring, both in quantity
and deaths. Please - let's try and avoid all avoidable incidents for at
*least* the rest of the calendar year!

On Sep 7, 5:21*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
On Sep 6, 9:09*pm, GARY BOGGS wrote:

How could you fly a glider without a rudder and not be able to tell
something is very wrong????

Was the yaw string missing too?

Boggs

Some students wouldn't know if the rudder fell off, because they never
use it anyway! It (the rudder) must weigh a good 20 pounds or so and
that much weight lost way back there would surely shift the CG out of
the forward limit. OK as long as speed is sufficient to keep elevator
authority. No Guy, my Puchacz went to Brazil and all the ad's were
complied with!
Cheers,
JJ

rudder? what's that?

Brad

"Cessna driver"

rudder? what's that?

Brad

"Cessna driver"

As someone just pointed out to me, it's the thing that stops spins.

On Sep 8, 12:11*pm, Brad wrote:
On Sep 7, 5:21*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:



On Sep 6, 9:09*pm, GARY BOGGS wrote:

How could you fly a glider without a rudder and not be able to tell
something is very wrong????

Was the yaw string missing too?

Boggs

Some students wouldn't know if the rudder fell off, because they never
use it anyway! It (the rudder) must weigh a good 20 pounds or so and
that much weight lost way back there would surely shift the CG out of
the forward limit. OK as long as speed is sufficient to keep elevator
authority. No Guy, my Puchacz went to Brazil and all the ad's were
complied with!
Cheers,
JJ

rudder? what's that?

Brad

"Cessna driver"

It's the thing behind you that wags when you step on the nose-wheel
pedals.

Mike