IGC 13.5m class discussion

A new thread, for Rick and John (and me and anyone else):

On Jan 26, 8:56 am, John Cochrane
wrote:

Rick asked about the insane (my opinion) 13.5 meter class, including
the momentous issue of water ballast.

People will race anything they can. I support that.

I don't support supporting more than about 3 classes at the
international level though. It's absurdly expensive and just dilutes
the intensity and prestige of the thing. My own personal view is that
any sort of handicap racing is a waste of time at the international
level. No handicapping system is truly fair and at that level of
competition arguments of "low cost" and accessibility really don't
wash. So I'd toss all the handicapped comps. Oh, and I'd prohibit
motor gliders... or at least restrict them to one of those three
classes. Have I offended everyone yet?

My three: open (pure glider), 18m (motor permitted), 15m (pure
glider). Feel free to explain to me why this would not be sufficient.

So: you guys want to race lawn darts or handicapped club class or 2-
seaters, have a ball. But I object strenuously to sanctioning so many
classes for international comps.

I realize these comments fall outside the current igc agenda. What
the igc should realize is that their willful deafness on this issue of
class proliferation hasn't caused general acceptance.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Jan 26, 10:25*am, T8 wrote:
A new thread, for Rick and John (and me and anyone else):

On Jan 26, 8:56 am, John Cochrane
wrote:

Rick asked about the insane (my opinion) 13.5 meter class, including
the momentous issue of water ballast.

People will race anything they can. *I support that.

I don't support supporting more than about 3 classes at the
international level though. *It's absurdly expensive and just dilutes
the intensity and prestige of the thing. *My own personal view is that
any sort of handicap racing is a waste of time at the international
level. *No handicapping system is truly fair and at that level of
competition arguments of "low cost" and accessibility really don't
wash. *So I'd toss all the handicapped comps. *Oh, and I'd prohibit
motor gliders... or at least restrict them to one of those three
classes. *Have I offended everyone yet?

My three: open (pure glider), 18m (motor permitted), 15m (pure
glider). *Feel free to explain to me why this would not be sufficient.

So: you guys want to race lawn darts or handicapped club class or 2-
seaters, have a ball. *But I object strenuously to sanctioning so many
classes for international comps.

I realize these comments fall outside the current igc agenda. *What
the igc should realize is that their willful deafness on this issue of
class proliferation hasn't caused general acceptance.

-Evan Ludeman */ T8

Evan, you just seem to be completely ignoring all the benefits that
the IGC world class brought to the growth of the sport of soaring. :-)

I personally think the whole 13.5m idea is silly, world class Mk II,
and I expect it to do as badly. Club/Sports class is there today for
entry level (yes I know club class can be extremely competitive a the
high end)/lower cost/handicapped competition.

The 20m question is maybe more interesting. I expect it may well
become the Arcus class, but maybe that's OK. Nothing stopped other
manufacturers producing flapped 20m ships in the past (and SH did with
the Janus). I'm not sure I see a reason to "protect" existing 20m non-
flapped gliders and their owners from market forces. And in the USA at
least there is already sports class where Duo etc. get to play (yes I
know this is a IGC discussion).

BTW thanks to Rick Sheppe for posting the original thread of questions
for the IGC meeting. Maybe brave to do so on r.a.s but a great move
since we lack any other widespread effective forum in the USA.

Darryl

On Jan 26, 11:25*am, T8 wrote:
A new thread, for Rick and John (and me and anyone else):

On Jan 26, 8:56 am, John Cochrane
wrote:

Rick asked about the insane (my opinion) 13.5 meter class, including
the momentous issue of water ballast.

People will race anything they can. *I support that.

I don't support supporting more than about 3 classes at the
international level though. *It's absurdly expensive and just dilutes
the intensity and prestige of the thing. *My own personal view is that
any sort of handicap racing is a waste of time at the international
level. *No handicapping system is truly fair and at that level of
competition arguments of "low cost" and accessibility really don't
wash. *So I'd toss all the handicapped comps. *Oh, and I'd prohibit
motor gliders... or at least restrict them to one of those three
classes. *Have I offended everyone yet?

My three: open (pure glider), 18m (motor permitted), 15m (pure
glider). *Feel free to explain to me why this would not be sufficient.

So: you guys want to race lawn darts or handicapped club class or 2-
seaters, have a ball. *But I object strenuously to sanctioning so many
classes for international comps.

I realize these comments fall outside the current igc agenda. *What
the igc should realize is that their willful deafness on this issue of
class proliferation hasn't caused general acceptance.

-Evan Ludeman */ T8

Evan,

I mostly agree with you, with slightly different classes that should
be supported by the US.

First the US should refuse to join the IGC in the “we have never met a
class we won’t approve” syndrome. The US should NOT recognize the
13.5 meter class and should not support it at all. We should also
ignore the new 20 meter class as it does not bring anything new to the
table that is not already represented in the current open class.

From just a numbers standpoint the US should support 15M, 18M and Club
class in the future. Why these three:

15M and Standard class are essentially one class in performance and
price. There is no reason to support two classes here and the
representation at the last few Standard Class Nationals says this is a
dying breed. The 15M continues to be the strongest and best
represented class in the US.
The open class should be allowed to die or at least no longer be
support by US funds because there are too few pilots flying in the
class to make it viable and the competition level does not provide
“World Class” pilots to represent the US. The era of pushing the
boundaries of soaring by making bigger gliders is mostly over. The
average pilot is not going to fly a 30M glider and the places you can
safely fly one is limited. The performance difference over a good 15
to 20M glider is minimal.
The 18M class is here to stay, but could be lumped with the 20M and
called one class. It is the ideal class for Motorgliders that have to
a wingloading at 15M.

The Club Class has the potential to be a very strong class if the US
is to embrace it like the rest of the World. It is the one class that
allows pilots on an average income to race on a fairly even field.
The US needs to start scoring the Club Class as a separate group in
the Sports Class Nationals and to call speed tasks for the pilots
rather than just TAT’s.

If the US made these changes we might be able to focus the limited
resources to truly support the US Team and the competition level would
increase the quality of the pilots representing the US in the World
Championships.

Tim

On Jan 26, 11:25*am, T8 wrote:
A new thread, for Rick and John (and me and anyone else):

On Jan 26, 8:56 am, John Cochrane
wrote:

Rick asked about the insane (my opinion) 13.5 meter class, including
the momentous issue of water ballast.

People will race anything they can. *I support that.

I don't support supporting more than about 3 classes at the
international level though. *It's absurdly expensive and just dilutes
the intensity and prestige of the thing. *My own personal view is that
any sort of handicap racing is a waste of time at the international
level. *No handicapping system is truly fair and at that level of
competition arguments of "low cost" and accessibility really don't
wash. *So I'd toss all the handicapped comps. *Oh, and I'd prohibit
motor gliders... or at least restrict them to one of those three
classes. *Have I offended everyone yet?

My three: open (pure glider), 18m (motor permitted), 15m (pure
glider). *Feel free to explain to me why this would not be sufficient.

So: you guys want to race lawn darts or handicapped club class or 2-
seaters, have a ball. *But I object strenuously to sanctioning so many
classes for international comps.

I realize these comments fall outside the current igc agenda. *What
the igc should realize is that their willful deafness on this issue of
class proliferation hasn't caused general acceptance.

-Evan Ludeman */ T8

Evan,

I mostly agree with you, with slightly different classes that should
be supported by the US.

First the US should refuse to join the IGC in the “we have never met a
class we won’t approve” syndrome. The US should NOT recognize the
13.5 meter class and should not support it at all. We should also
ignore the new 20 meter class as it does not bring anything new to the
table that is not already represented in the current open class.

From just a numbers standpoint the US should support 15M, 18M and Club
class in the future. Why these three:

15M and Standard class are essentially one class in performance and
price. There is no reason to support two classes here and the
representation at the last few Standard Class Nationals says this is a
dying breed. The 15M continues to be the strongest and best
represented class in the US.

The open class should be allowed to die or at least no longer be
support by US funds because there are too few pilots flying in the
class to make it viable and the competition level does not provide
“World Class” pilots to represent the US. The era of pushing the
boundaries of soaring by making bigger gliders is mostly over. The
average pilot is not going to fly a 30M glider and the places you can
safely fly one is limited. The performance difference over a good 15
to 20M glider is minimal.

The 18M class is here to stay, but could be lumped with the 20M and
called one class. It is the ideal class for Motorgliders that have
too high a wingloading at 15M.

The Club Class has the potential to be a very strong class if the US
is to embrace it like the rest of the World. It is the one class that
allows pilots on an average income to race on a fairly even field.
The US needs to start scoring the Club Class as a separate group in
the Sports Class Nationals and to call speed tasks for the pilots
rather than just TAT’s.

If the US made these changes we might be able to focus the limited
resources to truly support the US Team and the competition level would
increase the quality of the pilots representing the US in the World
Championships.

If the objective is to create a venue for a bunch of existing gliders
to race, handicapping seems the only way to go. Club class works that
way. So if the point is to have a race for PW5s, Russias, Silents,
etc. to race, the only viable answer is to create a low-performance
"club lite" class. Club class works great with roughly handicaps 1.0
- 0.9 (US) or 1.0 - 1.1 (Europe). So "below 1.0" is the natural way to
go. If the point is to give existing gliders a place to race, there
isn't much point to a wingspan limitation either.

If the objective is to create a class for completely new yet-to-be
designed gliders, then the natural structure is a class without
handicaps and with simple rules. If they want to do this, I favor
water ballast, so that empty wingloadings and stall speeds can be
low.

But why on earth do that? The absolutely last thing we need is a new
class for gliders that absolutely nobody is building or clamoring to
fly! Do some market research before starting a class! At least for 18m
the gliders came first and the class later.

Judging from the price and performance difference between 15 m and
18m, an optimized 13.5 m glider is going to cost only about $10,000
less than a 15 m glider (except they may substitute to exotic
materials to save weight), and deliver 40:1 performance at relatively
high wingloading. Does anyone want to fly such a thing?

John Cochrane

Perseverative behaviour.

We created the World class at 13.5m - stuffed the introduction up.
Can't easily stop, because then we have to admit to the world, and the
world class glider's owners that this was a mistake.

So - hope is our strategy - we will open the world class up to other
gliders, and call it the 13.5m class and somehow that will have people
clamouring to compete in them.

The illogic is only exceeded by the predictability of the consequences.

Scarce resourses will be allocated to a class that has three major
disadvantages out of the block:
It will cost as much or more to compete in the class than in Club, or
even in Standards with an older glider.
For the entry level pilot there is already club class / sports class
that is cheaper, and handicapped. And the gliders are great for weekend
flying too.
Anyone who is seriously competitive is going to be drawn to the highest
performance they can afford.

If anyone can see some major advantage to having yet another class let
me know. Frankly it is getting ridiculous. If we carry on like this
there is still a chance I can be world champion in some class.

There used to be "THE WORLDS" one class , one champion. I buy that three
or maybe at a stretch four classes make sense. But no more.
In south Africa we race "18m & Open" , 15m and Club classes. You could
add a two seater class if you wanted to - so make it four - but the 15m
class is getting pretty thin because the Club class is more competitive
and more fun with its handicaps.

In our generally strong conditions the open class gliders actually seem
to be at a disadvantage to the 18m ships that can get to higher
wingloading. Used to be 15m wingspan was open, we are still flying that
way here. It still works.

Ever more classes just dilutes effort, and competition.

Cheers
Bruce

On 2011/01/27 7:10 PM, John Cochrane wrote:
If the objective is to create a venue for a bunch of existing gliders
to race, handicapping seems the only way to go. Club class works that
way. So if the point is to have a race for PW5s, Russias, Silents,
etc. to race, the only viable answer is to create a low-performance
"club lite" class. Club class works great with roughly handicaps 1.0
- 0.9 (US) or 1.0 - 1.1 (Europe). So "below 1.0" is the natural way to
go. If the point is to give existing gliders a place to race, there
isn't much point to a wingspan limitation either.

If the objective is to create a class for completely new yet-to-be
designed gliders, then the natural structure is a class without
handicaps and with simple rules. If they want to do this, I favor
water ballast, so that empty wingloadings and stall speeds can be
low.

But why on earth do that? The absolutely last thing we need is a new
class for gliders that absolutely nobody is building or clamoring to
fly! Do some market research before starting a class! At least for 18m
the gliders came first and the class later.

Judging from the price and performance difference between 15 m and
18m, an optimized 13.5 m glider is going to cost only about $10,000
less than a 15 m glider (except they may substitute to exotic
materials to save weight), and deliver 40:1 performance at relatively
high wingloading. Does anyone want to fly such a thing?

John Cochrane

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57

BruceGreeff wrote:

The illogic is only exceeded by the predictability of the consequences.


It's perfectly logical. The ultimate goal is to have so many classes
that there'll be one competitor per class and everyone walks away with a
"first place". :-)

Tony

On Jan 27, 7:25*pm, Tony V wrote:
BruceGreeff wrote:
The illogic is only exceeded by the predictability of the consequences.

It's perfectly logical. The ultimate goal is to have so many classes
that there'll be one competitor per class and everyone walks away with a
"first place". :-)

Tony

I support the creation of the new 13.5 meter class. In the past 11
summers I have flown a glider with less than a 13.5 meter span more
than 1200 hours and 30, 000 miles cross country. Having been involved
in soaring off and on for over fifty years, I have also flown gliders
with spans of 15 to 19 meters about the same amount of time and miles.

There some pretty neat things about short wing gliders. They tend to
be lighter and easier to rig than larger gliders. This is nice for
older flyers and their older helpers. Just picking up the tail of many
of our 30 year gliders to put on a tail dolly can result in a hernia
for a 63 year old flyer. Moving the lighter gliders around on the
ground is easier. For example getting a PW-5 or Sparrow Hawk off of a
busy GA airport runway is a snap. Experienced Sparrow Hawk pilots one
man rig without a 800 dollar one man rigger.

Short wings increase the number of safe land out places. I have
landed the short wings in about ten places that would have totaled a
15 or 18 meter glider. The lower landing energy and speed of a
lighter glider is also a plus.

To me all gliders are pretty slow moving. The sensations in small or
large gliders are about the same, the main difference is the speed on
the score sheet. We all seem to try to return to our starting place
at the end of the day anyway.

I left soaring in 1978. I had a Standard Libelle which I loved but
was not (in my mind) competitive. I decided to do something different
and started racing sail boats. I noticed that the less expensive and
smaller the boat the more fun and comradship in the fleet. I do not
know why that is the case, but that is my opinion. In soaring the
last ten years, it seems to me that the people really having the most
fun are the 1-26 ers.

I do not see that continuing to have a place for short wing gliders to
race and set records really takes anything away from any other class.
I think it is especialy neat that the class is being opened up gliders
other than the PW-5. There are seveal really neat gliders that will
be able to fly in the 13.5 meter class. Think of all the time,
effort, and money that has been spent designing and building these
gliders.

If you have not tried it, don't ____ _____ __.

Bill Snead
6W

On Jan 26, 4:15*pm, Tim Taylor wrote:
On Jan 26, 11:25*am, T8 wrote:



A new thread, for Rick and John (and me and anyone else):

On Jan 26, 8:56 am, John Cochrane
wrote:

Rick asked about the insane (my opinion) 13.5 meter class, including
the momentous issue of water ballast.

People will race anything they can. *I support that.

I don't support supporting more than about 3 classes at the
international level though. *It's absurdly expensive and just dilutes
the intensity and prestige of the thing. *My own personal view is that
any sort of handicap racing is a waste of time at the international
level. *No handicapping system is truly fair and at that level of
competition arguments of "low cost" and accessibility really don't
wash. *So I'd toss all the handicapped comps. *Oh, and I'd prohibit
motor gliders... or at least restrict them to one of those three
classes. *Have I offended everyone yet?

My three: open (pure glider), 18m (motor permitted), 15m (pure
glider). *Feel free to explain to me why this would not be sufficient..

So: you guys want to race lawn darts or handicapped club class or 2-
seaters, have a ball. *But I object strenuously to sanctioning so many
classes for international comps.

I realize these comments fall outside the current igc agenda. *What
the igc should realize is that their willful deafness on this issue of
class proliferation hasn't caused general acceptance.

-Evan Ludeman */ T8

Evan,

I mostly agree with you, with slightly different classes that should
be supported by the US.

First the US should refuse to join the IGC in the “we have never met a
class we won’t approve” syndrome. *The US should NOT recognize the
13.5 meter class and should not support it at all. *We should also
ignore the new 20 meter class as it does not bring anything new to the
table that is not already represented in the current open class.

From just a numbers standpoint the US should support 15M, 18M and Club
class in the future. *Why these three:

15M and Standard class are essentially one class in performance and
price. *There is no reason to support two classes here and the
representation at the last few Standard Class Nationals says this is a
dying breed. *The 15M continues to be the strongest and best
represented class in the US.

The open class should be allowed to die or at least no longer be
support by US funds because there are too few pilots flying in the
class to make it viable and the competition level does not provide
“World Class” pilots to represent the US. *The era of pushing the
boundaries of soaring by making bigger gliders is mostly over. *The
average pilot is not going to fly a 30M glider and the places you can
safely fly one is limited. *The performance difference over a good 15
to 20M glider is minimal.

The 18M class is here to stay, but could be lumped with the 20M and
called one class. *It is the ideal class for Motorgliders that have
too high a wingloading at 15M.

The Club Class has the potential to be a very strong class if the US
is to embrace it like the rest of the World. *It is the one class that
allows pilots on an average income to race on a fairly even field.
The US needs to start scoring the Club Class as a separate group in
the Sports Class Nationals and to call speed tasks for the pilots
rather than just TAT’s.

If the US made these changes we might be able to focus the limited
resources to truly support the US Team and the competition level would
increase the quality of the pilots representing the US in the World
Championships.




15m, 18m & Club Class in Worlds and
15m, 18m, L/D Up to 1/43 Sports in USA
please
Pw-5 pilot

On Jan 27, 9:39*pm, RRK wrote:
On Jan 26, 4:15*pm, Tim Taylor wrote:



On Jan 26, 11:25*am, T8 wrote:

A new thread, for Rick and John (and me and anyone else):

On Jan 26, 8:56 am, John Cochrane
wrote:

Rick asked about the insane (my opinion) 13.5 meter class, including
the momentous issue of water ballast.

People will race anything they can. *I support that.

I don't support supporting more than about 3 classes at the
international level though. *It's absurdly expensive and just dilutes
the intensity and prestige of the thing. *My own personal view is that
any sort of handicap racing is a waste of time at the international
level. *No handicapping system is truly fair and at that level of
competition arguments of "low cost" and accessibility really don't
wash. *So I'd toss all the handicapped comps. *Oh, and I'd prohibit
motor gliders... or at least restrict them to one of those three
classes. *Have I offended everyone yet?

My three: open (pure glider), 18m (motor permitted), 15m (pure
glider). *Feel free to explain to me why this would not be sufficient.