F-102... German Origin

B2431 wrote:
[...]
Almost every thing you post in this newsgroup is about how great the
Germans, especially the Nazis, were/are.

If you adore the Germans so much why do you not move there?

_Please_, Dan, don't give him ideas - we already have too many Nazi lovers
over here :-(.

Andreas

"Andreas Parsch" wrote in message
...
B2431 wrote:
[...]
Almost every thing you post in this newsgroup is about how great the
Germans, especially the Nazis, were/are.

If you adore the Germans so much why do you not move there?

_Please_, Dan, don't give him ideas - we already have too many Nazi lovers
over here :-(.

If he were in Germany, wouldn't there be a law against his posts?

From: Andreas Parsch

B2431 wrote:
[...]
Almost every thing you post in this newsgroup is about how great the
Germans, especially the Nazis, were/are.

If you adore the Germans so much why do you not move there?

_Please_, Dan, don't give him ideas - we already have too many Nazi lovers
over here :-(.

Andreas

But there he could be arrested for some of the things he has posted. g

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Tarver Engineering wrote:

_Please_, Dan, don't give him ideas - we already have too many Nazi
lovers over here :-(.

If he were in Germany, wouldn't there be a law against his posts?

No, because he does neither explicitly deny the holocaust nor actively
promote NAZI symbols or slogans (which is indeed illegal to do in public in
Germany). Apart from that, it's perfectly legal to be a NAZI fan and say so
- one of the drawbacks of a free society ;-).

Andreas

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...

snip of Arndt being spanked by Keith

No A-bomb was dropped on Germany

Wasn't needed--the Nazi regime caved before we were even able to do the
Trinity test.

and the Reds did all the real
fighting on the ground...

Which would be a surprise to the Wehrmacht armies that got shoved out of
North Africa, bullied up the length of Italy, cut off and captured in
France, and then penetrated and exploited in both the Ruhr and farther
south, all by the western allies.

so you didn't win with any specific weapons
just NUMBERS OF MEN AND MATERIAL-

No, as Keith pointed out, a more intelligently *managed*, compared to the
German approach at the time, deluge of men and materiel.

a deluge NO army in history could
win against.

Especially one that, courtesy of its leadership, had blundered so badly and
in so many ways.

Of course the Germans DID fight non-stop for 6 years and
introduced incredible weapons that influenced the way we fight war for
6 decades now.

And what is that prize for just "being a good tryer" called in war...? Oh,
yeah, that's right--LOSER.

And they did it under TOTAL BOMBARDMENT.

Which they could not overcome, despite your continued references to super
weapons. Again, poor leadership decisions.

The US was
NEVER BOMBED and Britain only marginally compared to Germany.

The US was not stupid enough to start a war that opened it to such
treatment--Germany was, and paid for the error. Deal with it. The Brits just
proved superior to the German efforts directed at bombing it into
submission.

How many
weapons would the US have produced under total bombardment?

Dumb question--the German's could not bombard the US, and the closest the
Japanese came to a strategic bombing campaign against the US were a few
incendiary balloons which had no significant effect.

How come
we had every advantage and only claim the A-bomb, radar, and the P-51D
Mustang?

Who says that is all we can claim?

The US should have produced everyhting the Germans did... but
did not.

We (speaking of the western allies as a whole) produced the VT fuze; the
Germans did not. We produced reliable and robust four engined bombers; the
Germans did not. We produced enough trucks to motorize the entire ground
force--the Germans were still relying on horses for a significant part of
their ground transport when the war ended. The list can go on and on...

And if you think the Allies are so great why then did they send all
their experts into Germany hunting for secret weapons and every scrap
of technology they could find?

Because we were smart enough to try and take advantage of the research that
the Germans had largely wasted?

Wright Field held thousands of TONs of
captured documents- the largest brain-drain and theft of entire nation
in history.

It is not "theft" when you are the losing nation--think of it as
"intellectual reparations".

And you dare to say no one benefitted from it?

From the specific program you claim to have been the foundation of the
F-102? Nope, not really.

Bull****.

No, that has been you product, not Keith's.

You're a joke Keith.

No, he is not, especially compared to the deluded, and delusional, likes of
you.

My next door neighbor was in the OSS.

God, I bet you'd *really* have been impressed with him if he'd not had that
initial "O" in that title...

He died in
1981 but before he did I asked him what exactly they found in Germany.

Lots of rubble?

He told me something I'll never forget, "among the jets and rockets we
found things that we could not comprehend at the time". He actually
was there and saw the stuff.

Even if he did say that (and your rep is not such that we can depend upon
the accuracy of your claim), so what?

You didn't, so **** off.

So Keith has demonstrated a better grasp of the significance of the material
in question than your neighbor did; again, so what?

Brooks


Rob

From: (robert arndt)


Of course the Germans DID fight non-stop for 6 years and introduced incredible
weapons that influenced the way we fight war for 6 decades now.

Non stop? Check your history books. The most famous "stop" was the "sitzkreig"
between the criminal invasion of Poland and the illegal and equally unprovoked
invasion of the Low Countries and France.

Let's see, about your wonder weapons that influence us to this day, would that
include the assorted suicide weapons? Perhaps the super cannon in France with
the multiple breaches? The missiles that were so improbable no other country
has made equivelents? The long range bombers? Oops, the Nazis never made a
successful one.

Get over it. The Nazis did work on some things we use to this day. So did the
U.S., U.K. and U.S.S.R. and all your rants can't change that. If the Nazi ideas
had any merits they have been used. The fact remains your claims of 2 atom
bombs being built and detonated, various wonder weapons being covered up by
assorted plots and the like have never been verified by reliable sources

Just think, if your heroes hadn't started the war they would have had time to
develop all kinds of neat things.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

From: Andreas Parsch
Date: 2/15/2004 3:40 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Tarver Engineering wrote:

_Please_, Dan, don't give him ideas - we already have too many Nazi
lovers over here :-(.

If he were in Germany, wouldn't there be a law against his posts?

No, because he does neither explicitly deny the holocaust nor actively
promote NAZI symbols or slogans (which is indeed illegal to do in public in
Germany). Apart from that, it's perfectly legal to be a NAZI fan and say so
- one of the drawbacks of a free society ;-).

Andreas


Well, I tried g

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

robert arndt wrote:
snip
And if you think the Allies are so great why then did they send all
their experts into Germany hunting for secret weapons and every scrap
of technology they could find? Wright Field held thousands of TONs of

Do you have a source on this? "thousands of TONS?" Not very plausible.

Cheers

--mike

captured documents- the largest brain-drain and theft of entire nation
in history.
snip
Rob

Orval Fairbairn wrote in message .. .
In article ,
(robert arndt) wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/annex/an51.htm

... more "borrowed" German-tech courtesy of Dr. Alexander Lippisch.
From the Lippisch DM-1/P.13 we got the XF-92, F-102, F-106, and B-58.

Rob

On that basis the V-2 was built using borrowed US technology.

'Goddard was ahead of us all '
Werner Von Braun

Keith

Right... Germany got it's rocketry from Oberth, not Goddard:
http://www.oberth-museum.org/museum_e.htm

BTW, the Allies had no equivalent to the V-2 and most every other
German missile design.
Postwar it was German tech that made the US and USSR superpowers...
unless you still believe a lone bomber-dropped A-bomb could sustain
that status. As a matter of fact 85% of our current weapon systems are
derived from technology of the Second and Third Reichs.

Airplanes? no.

There were many inventors from many nations on the way to inventing
the aircraft in the fields of aerodynamics and propulsion: from Caley,
Lilienthal, the Stinson Victorian aerial steamer etc. The Wrights got
there first only just. Several people got there in 1904 and 1905 and
several may have done earlier. Despite Amerians being most probably
first it is inevitable that someone would have done so independantly
in several other nations. An Englishman, Frenchman and German would
have followed soon.



Micro electronics? no.

That certainly belongs to Noyce though there was some German
transistor work.

Konrad Zuse quite independantly invented the computer and even a high
level language. Most of his Z series machines used relays (thus
making them more reliable and more funtional than valve machines) and
they had floating point arithmetic and they did work on a valve
powered FLAK computer.



Radar? No.

A German called Christian Husselmeyer apparently invented radar in
1903 after witnessing loss of life on a barge that collided in a
fogged up Rhine River.

German radar was well developed quite independantly before WW2. It was
superior to British radar in most ways. Part of the problem was that
the Freya and Wurzburg were so good that they encouraged the Germans
to neglect microwave radar developement. Wurzburg even used Doppler
to overcome window and chaff.


http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/docs/97-0609F.pdf:
DEFLATING BRITISH RADAR MYTHS OF WORLD WAR II
A Research Paper
Presented To
The Research Department
Air Command and Staff College
In Partial Fulfillment of the Graduation Requirements of ACSC
by Maj. Gregory C. Clark
March 1997

4
Incredibly, in 1904 a German inventor, Christian Hülsmeyer, was
granted a British patent for a telemobiloscope, which was a
'hertzian-wave projecting and receiving apparatus…to give
warning of the resence of a metallic body such as a ship or a train.'
On the morning of 10 May 1904, at the Rhine bridge in Cologne, he
successfully demonstrated his apparatus. With rave reviews from the
press, technical representatives from various shipping companies
observed a convincing display of this new technology. He proved that a
ship fitted with this system of transmitter and receiver could locate
another ship and inform the captain of the approach of another vessel
up to 5 kilometers
away. The shipping company representatives were enthusiastic, but
hesitant to invest in this new technology and afraid of violating
previous agreements with the Marconi Company. The shipping companies
had trouble differentiating between wireless directional finding
versus the idea of radio detection. In their minds it seemed to be
spending twice for the same results. Hülsmeyer also sought the
financial backing of the German Navy only to be rebuffed by Admiral
von Tirpitz's reply of, 'Not interested. My people have better ideas!'
Only after a personal expenditure of 25,000 Marks and approaching
bankruptcy did he abandon his idea to pursue more financially
rewarding work.6
What is important about this is the fact that as early as 1904 the
concept of radar was demonstrated and patented. Hülsmeyer’s
techniques revealed modern concepts which would not be rediscovered
for another thirty years. His idea of mounting the assembly on the
foremast of a ship to measure the range and bearing of an object did
not reappear until the Second World War. It is also interesting to
reflect how this invention would have changed history in the instance
of the loss of the passenger ship Titanic and the World War I naval
battle of Jutland.7

http://groups.google.com.au/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=9iv8uk%24dsq%241%40nntp6.u.wash ington.edu&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26q%3Dflak%2Bpredictor%2Bproximity% 26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch

The British received as an invaluable gift a well-made tube, a part
of an early attempted iteration of such a fuze, which measured
electrical
potentials and could serve to trigger a detonator if the potential
detected were high enough. The gift came as part of what came to be
known as
the Oslo Report, so-named because that was the city in which a German
engineer
(IIRC) disaffected with the Nazi regime, used to transmit this
remarkable and
priceless document to the British. In it were described all of the
most advanced technologies then under consideration by the Hitlerites,
including the proximity fuse, in great detail.





Rocketry? See Robert Goddard -- Von Braun & Co. developed his concepts.
Atomic bombs? The stupid Hitler & Co. evicted their best theoretical
physicists (Einstein & Co.) to the US. Thank you!

Einstein was a bit of a celebrity myth. There is not much that he
actually developed at all. E = mc^2 was elucidated in public and
published by an Italian several years before Einstein (who spoke
Italian as his father was an Nth Italian Jew) and his polio crippled
serbian wife used Bernhard Rieman's Tensor calculus to put his
theories back together again after Heisenberg shot them down. Between
Maz Plank, Michelson & Morley, Maxwell, Rieman, Fitzgerald & Lorenz
it's impossible to see that Einstein did anything but clever
plagiarism and self publicity. He was littlemore than an ethnophobic
zionist in my eyes.

Goddard's work was excellent but even after sponsorship by Daniel
Guggenheim it seems to have gone nowhere.

The use of gyro-steered vains on the rocketry motor seems and
intuitively obvious development of the Auto-Pilot.

I think its more a case of parrallel development rather than
'copying'. von Braun't socieity for spaceflight goes back to the
early 20s afterall.

One invention the V2 people did come up with was the PIGA (pendulating
integration gyroscopic accelerometer) which was accurate enough to
provide for inertial navigation.




Aerial refueling? no.

The Germans mande several succesfull aerial refuelings during WW2
though they rejected them as impracticable for attacks on the USA.

What made aerial refueling a success was the developement of the jet
engine and the elimination of the prop collision issue. You might
have seen Me 262s aerial refueling perhaps from a probe and drogue fed
from a whatever big aircraft hr Germans had but certainly never a P51
and and very unlikely a P38. What made aerial refueling practicable
on a P80 from a B29 made it practicable from a Me 262 from a He 177 or
Ju 352 or Ju 390



Satellites? Developed from Von Braun & Co.

Then there is also the space programs of the US and USSR
It is so unbelievable to read this nonsense about the "USA invented
everything" crap. If it wasn't for Germany and two World Wars (which
you guys hate so much) the US would just be some second-rate regional
power still playing games with Mexico and central America.
Get a clue.


It is fortunate that the Germans had such a bunch of lunatics for
leaders that they lost the wars they started. If they hadn't started the
wars, they MIGHT have been successful!


A favourable winter, rather than the worst winter in 100 years, in the
Soviet Union may have changed all of that.

Possibley the biggest mistake they made was the Hitler dictate that no
developments that could not be completed within 2 years should be
preceded with.
This seems to have cost them their excellent microwave development
team in 1940 and the development of the proximity fuse (both were put
on ice).

The dictate may have been sensible however: Germany and the Axis were
thoroughly outnumbered and out resourced and devoting resources and
engineers on future developements may have been flawed as those
resources were best applied to immediate issues. To the Axis it was
win now or face inevevitable defeat in a war of attrition that the
Allies would win on the basis of superior resources.

The Germans certainly made breakthrough reasearch in ballistic,
rocketry guidence, jet propulsion, stealth (radar aborbant paints and
structures on sub conning towers and the Go 229 aircraft) swept wing
aerodynamics (Busmann in 1930s). Even in doctrine the Germans were
"right" in the long run (though utter wrong in the short run) as they
anticipated that passive sensor technology would be necessary as any
emiter would be detected and attacked.

robert arndt wrote in message . ..
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...


(snip)

We never were stupid enough to deploy a missile that killed
more of our own workers building it than the numbers of our
enemy that it managed kill when fired.

At no time did we warp our entire defnce industries producing a
weapon with no real military value that sucked up scarce
resources desperately needed for defense of the homeland.

It never occurred to us that a weapon which cost more per round
than the value of the damage it caused.

No we just developed the weapons that won the
war, not very imaginative perhaps but hey as a
strategy its effectiveness is demonstrated by the fact
that this conversation is in English.

Keith

No A-bomb was dropped on Germany

Ah the need to throw in something different.

and the Reds did all the real
fighting on the ground...

Except for the clearing of western Europe and North Africa.

so you didn't win with any specific weapons
just NUMBERS OF MEN AND MATERIAL- a deluge NO army in history could
win against.

Amazing then the very bright German high command voluntarily decided
to take on the combination.

By the way the above text is "you didn't win", below is "we won". Robert
keeps becoming a WWII German then changing to something else.

Of course the Germans DID fight non-stop for 6 years

October 1939 to April 1940? The gap in land operations June 1940
to April 1941? The fact September 1939 to April 1945 is 5 years 8
months?

The British fought for nearly 6 years less the early pauses, the RN was
in the war for 6 years, the Chinese were at war for around 8 to 9 years,
as were the Japanese.

and introduced incredible weapons that influenced the way we fight war for
6 decades now.

You mean like the advanced radars, major radio networking, the
atomic weapons and propulsion systems, the use of airpower
against an economy, aircraft carriers, fully motorising the armies,
proximity fuses, awacs, controlled air interception?

And they did it under TOTAL BOMBARDMENT. The US was
NEVER BOMBED and Britain only marginally compared to Germany.

To the end of 1941 the British estimates are the Luftwaffe had dropped
around 57,000 tons of bombs on Britain, by the end of 1942 that was up
to around 60,000 tons. This tonnage excludes incendiary bombs.

Bomber Command records have the RAF tonnage on Germany as of
the end of February 1942 as 31,714 tons, by the end of 1942 67,221
tons. Until around the end of the third quarter of 1942 there were more
German bombs on Britain than the other way around. So go and
compare the British economy in 1940, 1941 and into 1942 versus the
German one.

Bomber Command's halfway point for bombs on Germany was in
September 1944, the 8th Air Force's mid November 1944. The 8th
passed the 60,000 tons of bombs on Germany mark in March 1944,
and this counts incendiaries.

The US was bombed, by Japanese float planes and balloons, as well
as having a couple of bombardments by submarines. Minor it is true
but non zero, and I am not counting a place called Alaska, which is
normally considered a part of the US.

How many
weapons would the US have produced under total bombardment?

Given the larger size of the economy and greater distance to the
targets from outside the US probably more weapons as the attacks
could allow the government to squeeze the population more while
the raids did little lasting damage. Especially with Goering as the
head of the attacking air force. Bf109 range was? As a percentage
of the width and depth of the US?

How come
we had every advantage and only claim the A-bomb, radar, and the P-51D
Mustang?

Given the cost of the a-bomb that alone is a substantial advantage.
Add a large navy, ground controlled interception, the new way of naval
warfare, the more advanced electronics, medical advances like mass
production of penicillin and so on. The US had to solve different
problems than the Germans, so it is not surprising different areas made
better progress, but that has to be ignored.

The US should have produced everyhting the Germans did... but
did not.

So tell us all where are the Kriegsmarine Essex class carriers?
How about say a few escort carriers? The major shipbuilding
program to enable armies and navies to fight at the other end
of the Atlantic and Pacific? The advanced radars, penicillin,
whole blood service and so on.

How about using high speed cameras to record wind tunnel tests?
How about the banning of personal radios by the Nazis, thereby
removing the chance for a large number of people to learn to use
radios for themselves, given how much of WWII was a radio war.

Why wasn't the Luftwaffe air defence system as good as the
RAF's in 1940?

Since Germany had around a 50% bigger population than Britain,
just as the USA had around the same margin over Germany why
didn't the Germans produce everything the British did? Mosquitoes
come to mind as aircraft, reliable jet engines another, airborne
radars in 1940, machines ("computers") to break codes and so on
and the Germans should have easily matched the British in the
1942/43 time period, since they had the less bombed economy,
correct? How about the LST, a large ocean going ship that could
beach itself and handle vehicles.

The Japanese had long range single engined fighters in 1940, why
didn't the Germans?

Shall we go on, say why didn't the Germans have a written language
when the Greeks and Romans did?

And if you think the Allies are so great why then did they send all
their experts into Germany hunting for secret weapons and every scrap
of technology they could find? Wright Field held thousands of TONs of
captured documents- the largest brain-drain and theft of entire nation
in history.

Given the amount of theft that goes on in war I doubt what the
western allies did in 1945 was the greatest theft ever, and it
makes sense to merge the German and allied research, just
look at the benefits when the US and UK merged theirs, and
justify it as reparations for the damage the Germans did.

The greatest brain drain was done by the Nazis, look at all the
people who left before the war.

Different countries had different priorities, the allies decided to
benefit from that, saves work.

And you dare to say no one benefitted from it? Bull****.

No Keith makes the point that your claims about what benefits there
were are greatly exaggerated.

You're a joke Keith. My next door neighbor was in the OSS. He died in
1981 but before he did I asked him what exactly they found in Germany.
He told me something I'll never forget, "among the jets and rockets we
found things that we could not comprehend at the time". He actually
was there and saw the stuff. You didn't, so **** off.

This is quite funny, the idea OSS operators were chosen for expertise
in advanced aerodynamics, the unsupported verbal claim used as
"proof".

It is quite simple when Keith states something it is normally correct,
when Robert states something it is normally fiction. Just check with
other sources.


Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.