Checklist formats

On Mar 28, 12:17*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
Kirk,
Did you read:http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...a_fact_gawande

Here is a quote-
"Line infections are so common that they are considered a routine
complication. I.C.U.s put five million lines into patients each year,
and national statistics show that, after ten days, four per cent of
those lines become infected. Line infections occur in eighty thousand
people a year in the United States, and are fatal between five and
twenty-eight per cent of the time, depending on how sick one is at the
start."

OK, now here are the steps-
(1) wash hands with soap,
(2) clean the patient’s skin with chlorhexidine antiseptic,
(3) put sterile drapes over the entire patient,
(4) wear a sterile mask, hat, gown, and gloves, and
(5) put a sterile dressing over the catheter site once the line is in.

Clearly these are simple, easy to remember things that don't need a
checklist. But they started using a checklist anyway-

"the ten-day line-infection rate went from eleven per cent to zero. So
they followed patients for fifteen more months. Only two line
infections occurred during the entire period. They calculated that, in
this one hospital, the checklist had prevented forty-three infections
and eight deaths, and saved two million dollars in costs."

Agree with most of your comments, BTW, but checklists are sometimes
useful for even the simple things.

Brian

Sorry, that's not a checklist, that a procedure.

And reading some of the "checklists" I see on RAS, they are also more
"procedures" instead of checklists.

WUFSTALL is getting awfully close to a procedure for me.

Kirk
66

Oh, good grief! It's a simple glider, not an airliner.

If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). The control feel is
entirely different.

Same for flaps.

Test the spoilers? Why? You'll know as soon as you try to open them
and can alter your pattern then. If that's too complex, maybe you
shouldn't be flying.

Check the wind? You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the wind
direction and speed? Drift, crab? Should you really be up there
alone?

Check trim? Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? Should you be
flying?

I could go on and on, but to what end?

When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
checklist mnemonic was: CHAOTIC. What the heck did that mean? I
couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less now!

In my AF days before takeoff we said: "All shiny switches - Outboard"
and before landing it was: "Muff 91, gear check, full stop."

I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. I know, some
day...

(Flame suit on)

I tend to agree with the idea that checklist should be short and apply
to only critical or commonly forgotten items.

When you add too many item and it becomes a procedure then you are
likely to miss or skip critical items on the list. Or it becomes so
long that you eventally just don't do it at all.

W ater
U ndercarriage
F laps
S peed
T rim
A irbrakes
R adio Intentions
E nter Pattern

could easily be shorted to WU, Water because it can be easy to forget
and Undercarriage because it is critical and easy to forget.

My Take off critical check list is:

Canopy closed (Critical)
Controls Checked (Critical)
Flight Recorder on (easily forgotton)

It is just a sticker on instrument panel.
My assembly critical assembly check list is a sticker on the access
cover. I don't install the access cover until the check list complete.

Brian

Oh, good grief! *It's a simple glider, not an airliner.

If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). *The control feel is
entirely different.

Same for flaps.

Test the spoilers? *Why? *You'll know as soon as you try to open them
and can alter your pattern then. *If that's too complex, maybe you
shouldn't be flying.

Check the wind? *You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the wind
direction and speed? *Drift, crab? *Should you really be up there
alone?

Check trim? *Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? *Should you be
flying?

I could go on and on, but to what end?

When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
checklist mnemonic was: *CHAOTIC. *What the heck did that mean? *I
couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less now!

In my AF days before takeoff we said: *"All shiny switches - Outboard"
and before landing it was: *"Muff 91, gear check, full stop."

I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. *I know, some
day...

(Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -

Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne is
lead....

We agree.

Kirk
66

On Mar 28, 11:56*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
Oh, good grief! *It's a simple glider, not an airliner.

If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). *The control feel is
entirely different.

Same for flaps.

Test the spoilers? *Why? *You'll know as soon as you try to open them
and can alter your pattern then. *If that's too complex, maybe you
shouldn't be flying.

Check the wind? *You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the wind
direction and speed? *Drift, crab? *Should you really be up there
alone?

Check trim? *Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? *Should you be
flying?

I could go on and on, but to what end?

When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
checklist mnemonic was: *CHAOTIC. *What the heck did that mean? *I
couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less now!

In my AF days before takeoff we said: *"All shiny switches - Outboard"
and before landing it was: *"Muff 91, gear check, full stop."

I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. *I know, some
day...

(Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -

Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne is
lead....

We agree.

Kirk
66

Damn, Kirk! Did we fly together? I holler over the side to my crew
chief, "I got EGT, you got noise?"

Seems to me that, in a glider, the only necessary checklist is "Gear -
DOWN".

I suppose some have attempted takeoff with the canopy open but Darwin
is lurking just around the corner and a checklist won't protect you
from him...

OK, hotshots,

Go read Kern's Airmanship Redefined.

We aren't all up here because we have testosterone poisoning.


Whether it is a checklist or a procedure, these are good devices for
students, low-time pilots, and us old guys who need check lists to help us
keep flying. Medical advice for older guys (from MD glider pilots) is to
fly more often and use checklists. We aren't all flying international
contests and it isn't the Indy 500.

DON'T TELL US TO GET OUT OF THE SKY!



At 18:37 28 March 2011, Dan Marotta wrote:
On Mar 28, 11:56=A0am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
Oh, good grief! =A0It's a simple glider, not an airliner.

If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). =A0The control feel is
entirely different.

Same for flaps.

Test the spoilers? =A0Why? =A0You'll know as soon as you try to
open
th=
em
and can alter your pattern then. =A0If that's too complex, maybe
you
shouldn't be flying.

Check the wind? =A0You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the
win=
d
direction and speed? =A0Drift, crab? =A0Should you really be up
there
alone?

Check trim? =A0Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? =A0Should you be
flying?

I could go on and on, but to what end?

When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
checklist mnemonic was: =A0CHAOTIC. =A0What the heck did that mean?
=A0=
I
couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less
now!

In my AF days before takeoff we said: =A0"All shiny switches -
Outboard=
"
and before landing it was: =A0"Muff 91, gear check, full stop."

I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. =A0I know,
some
day...

(Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -

Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne is
lead....

We agree.

Kirk
66

Damn, Kirk! Did we fly together? I holler over the side to my crew
chief, "I got EGT, you got noise?"

Seems to me that, in a glider, the only necessary checklist is "Gear -
DOWN".

I suppose some have attempted takeoff with the canopy open but Darwin
is lurking just around the corner and a checklist won't protect you
from him...

On Mar 28, 2:00*pm, Nyal Williams wrote:
OK, hotshots,

Go read Kern's Airmanship Redefined.

We aren't all up here because we have testosterone poisoning.

Whether it is a checklist or a procedure, these are good devices for
students, low-time pilots, and us old guys who need check lists to help us
keep flying. *Medical advice for older guys (from MD glider pilots) is to
fly more often and use checklists. We aren't all flying international
contests and it isn't the Indy 500.

DON'T TELL US TO GET OUT OF THE SKY!

At 18:37 28 March 2011, Dan Marotta wrote:



On Mar 28, 11:56=A0am, "kirk.stant" *wrote:
Oh, good grief! =A0It's a simple glider, not an airliner.

If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). =A0The control feel is
entirely different.

Same for flaps.

Test the spoilers? =A0Why? =A0You'll know as soon as you try to
open
th=
em
and can alter your pattern then. =A0If that's too complex, maybe
you
shouldn't be flying.

Check the wind? =A0You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the
win=
d
direction and speed? =A0Drift, crab? =A0Should you really be up
there
alone?

Check trim? =A0Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? =A0Should you be
flying?

I could go on and on, but to what end?

When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
checklist mnemonic was: =A0CHAOTIC. =A0What the heck did that mean?
=A0=
I
couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less
now!

In my AF days before takeoff we said: =A0"All shiny switches -
Outboard=
"
and before landing it was: =A0"Muff 91, gear check, full stop."

I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. =A0I know,
some
day...

(Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -

Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne is
lead....

We agree.

Kirk
66

Damn, Kirk! *Did we fly together? *I holler over the side to my crew
chief, "I got EGT, you got noise?"

Seems to me that, in a glider, the only necessary checklist is "Gear -
DOWN".

I suppose some have attempted takeoff with the canopy open but Darwin
is lurking just around the corner and a checklist won't protect you
from him...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think we now have the complete range of opinions, even better I have
the exact information I was looking for in the original post thank you
again Matt and Eric. I promise everyone I will have the correct
number of items on my checklist. In case I didn't understand quite
what those were, could everyone please post their opinion again?
Wouldn't want to miss that.

Brian

On 3/28/2011 8:21 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:

Maybe you need to meet some real glider pilots; you know, the kind that
have made mistakes. There are a lot of us - not hard to find!

Oh, good grief! It's a simple glider, not an airliner.

If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). The control feel is
entirely different.

Yikes! After flying a ballasted glider for 4 or 5 hours, it _feels_
normal (at least for the four gliders I've owned that used water), and
if I'm concentrating on a low save or other intense things, I can forget
it. After the first time, I added it to my checklist (meaning - started
using one); so far, no repeat incidents.

Same for flaps.

Read the above, starting with the Yikes!, but thinking flaps instead of
ballast. I didn't think it was possible to forget setting the flaps, but
it was and still is.

Test the spoilers? Why? You'll know as soon as you try to open them
and can alter your pattern then. If that's too complex, maybe you
shouldn't be flying.

If you try them early in the pattern, that can be the test. If you
sometimes wait until you are on final, that might be too late to deal
with the the problem. I've only had one spoiler incident - frozen closed
- but I've read of others having problems, including stuck open and only
one deploying. The other reason is to activate the gear warning, in case
you forgot that. I've been saved from a gear up landing at least three
times by a spoiler activated gear warning, and I'd rather have the
warning early in the pattern instead of on final.


Check the wind? You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the wind
direction and speed? Drift, crab? Should you really be up there
alone?

I've never had these on my checklist, but I have learned to check the
wind several times during a pattern, after being fooled a couple times.

Check trim? Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? Should you be
flying?

I don't have this one on my checklist, but I'd say the danger is
relaxing and letting the airspeed decrease/increase unintentionally,
most likely while you are distracted by other aircraft in the pattern,
the radio, people wandering around near the runway, etc.

I could go on and on, but to what end?

(snip)

I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. I know, some
day...

OK, you don't need a checklist, but I think I see why you can't imagine
that some of us find them helpful: you don't make mistakes and you don't
get distracted. I make mistakes and I do get distracted. In 36 years of
glider flying, I've managed to avoid big mistakes so a dinged wing tip
on a landing light is the extent of my damage. It's taken plenty of
care, some checklists, revision of procedures, study, and some luck to
do it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

Opinions are like rear ends. Everyone has one. Check lists are good ideas, they should highlight the critical events like locking the canopy and putting down the landing gear. I heard a story of a glider pilot who landed gear up on the runway with a student pilot in back of him. He couldn't make it off the runway and the student with limited skill and experience dinged his wing. Perhaps a checklist on the panel with "put the gear down," would have saved some repairs.

Just my opinion

Walt

On Mar 28, 3:00*pm, Nyal Williams wrote:
OK, hotshots,

Go read Kern's Airmanship Redefined.

We aren't all up here because we have testosterone poisoning.

Whether it is a checklist or a procedure, these are good devices for
students, low-time pilots, and us old guys who need check lists to help us
keep flying. *Medical advice for older guys (from MD glider pilots) is to
fly more often and use checklists. We aren't all flying international
contests and it isn't the Indy 500.

DON'T TELL US TO GET OUT OF THE SKY!

At 18:37 28 March 2011, Dan Marotta wrote:

On Mar 28, 11:56=A0am, "kirk.stant" *wrote:
Oh, good grief! =A0It's a simple glider, not an airliner.

If you can't tell that you have a load of water on board, maybe you
shouldn't be flying with water (or at all!). =A0The control feel is
entirely different.

Same for flaps.

Test the spoilers? =A0Why? =A0You'll know as soon as you try to
open
th=
em
and can alter your pattern then. =A0If that's too complex, maybe
you
shouldn't be flying.

Check the wind? =A0You mean that you aren't constantly aware of the
win=
d
direction and speed? =A0Drift, crab? =A0Should you really be up
there
alone?

Check trim? =A0Have you been holding constant pressure on the stick?
Can't you land with trim locked at either extreme? =A0Should you be
flying?

I could go on and on, but to what end?

When I flew at Bond Springs, NT, Australia, their before takeoff
checklist mnemonic was: =A0CHAOTIC. =A0What the heck did that mean?
=A0=
I
couldn't remember during the time I was flying there, much less
now!

In my AF days before takeoff we said: =A0"All shiny switches -
Outboard=
"
and before landing it was: =A0"Muff 91, gear check, full stop."

I haven't damaged an aircraft in 38 years of flying. =A0I know,
some
day...

(Flame suit on)- Hide quoted text -

Kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first one airborne is
lead....

We agree.

Kirk
66

Damn, Kirk! *Did we fly together? *I holler over the side to my crew
chief, "I got EGT, you got noise?"

Seems to me that, in a glider, the only necessary checklist is "Gear -
DOWN".

I suppose some have attempted takeoff with the canopy open but Darwin
is lurking just around the corner and a checklist won't protect you
from him...

Now, now... Nobody's telling anybody to get out of the sky.

I'm only objecting to the mind-set that you MUST use a checklist. In
the traffic pattern is no place to be reading a book on how to fly
your glider. You should know what to do, when to do it, and you
should know your glider well enough to feel when things aren't right,
i.e., wings still full, dive brakes not open, glider not yet on the
ground. If you need a mnemonic to remember these things, fine, but
please don't be flipping charts on the top of the panel while sharing
the pattern with me.

On Mar 29, 5:01*am, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
Opinions are like rear ends. *Everyone has one. *Check lists are good
ideas, they should highlight the critical events like locking the canopy
and putting down the landing gear. *I heard a story of a glider pilot
who landed gear up on the runway with a student pilot in back of him.
He couldn't make it off the runway and the student with limited skill
and experience dinged his wing. *Perhaps a checklist on the panel with
"put the gear down," would have saved some repairs.

Just my opinion

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

I don't think anyone on this thread was saying "checklists" are a bad
idea. The majority of the discussion has been about whether the list
needs to be written or mnemonic and what the content of the list
should be.

The extremes range between mnemonic+short, and written+long.

The key thing about any list is that it only contributes to safety if
you actually use it. I contend that a pilot is just as likely to fail
to execute a written list as a mnemonic list. I therefore contend
that a written list has no advantage over a mnemonic list unless the
list is so long it cannot be easily memorized. As others have stated
a mnemonic list does not distract from keeping eyes outside.

I also have gear warning to every glider I have owned. It went off
once in 23 years and that was as I turned downwind.

A story about airline pilots and checklists. I recently participated
in a flight test program in which we leased a modern 100 passenger
twin jet. A condition of the lease was that it would be flown by the
airline's pilots not our company test pilots. Several crews rotated
through during the test program. With only one exception during the
preflight checks the crew responded to "cockpit door" with "closed and
locked". That was interesting because the door was secured wide open
to allow instrumentation wiring to pass to the rear cabin.

Andy