Where can I get dual instruction in a glider with flaps? (USA)

On Aug 19, 5:39*pm, BobW wrote:
On 8/19/2012 1:55 PM, Dave Nadler wrote: On Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:25:58 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
... I can ease into using the flaps.

That is one of the most dangerous things you can do with a flapped glider.
Do your homework and make sure you understand why.
If you've had a CFI briefing and aren't clear on this,
find another CFI with more appropriate experience.

"What Dave said!"

Where you don't want to end up is overshooting your field because of improper
use of arguably the most effective/draggy/energy-reducing landing devices
semi-commonly found on sailplanes (i.e. large-deflection landing flaps).

You'll love the glider and the landing flaps !
But be safe and get proper training first !
I've watched some really unfortunate results
when proper training didn't precede flying...

Again..."What Dave said!" (It's painful to watch 'really unfortunate results,'
even when nothing gets bent. It's even more painful to watch a glider getting
bent when 'proper training' is willfully ignored!)

IMHO, there's nothing fundamentally difficult or dangerous in the correct use
of large-deflection landing flaps. I - safely, unexcitingly - transitioned to
them from a 1-26 with a total of 128 hours, all in 2-22'2, 2-33's and 1-26's.
That was in 1975...no instructors to talk with, no world wide web to research.
So did my partner with roughly similar time/experience. Never willingly went
back to spoilers unless giving rides.

The devil is always in the details, and the details of proper use of
large-deflection flaps were/are not particularly well hidden.



Best Regards, Dave

Have fun!

Bob - 2,000 hrs of large deflection-landing flapped ship time - W.

Agreed, and it's those details that we need to squeeze out of
experienced flappers like you. Maybe when you have time you can write
at least a short narrative on how you would instruct a newbie to flap-
only ships. Here are a few YouTube videos that focus on landings.
First is a 1-35 on base/final. Note the extreme attitude at what I
think I hear him say are full flaps. Before touchdown, he retracts
partial flaps, and note what happens next. Read the notes made with
the post (no, not the idiotic comments that follow). Good on these
guys who post less-than-perfect flights so we can all learn. The other
two videos show an HP11, HP16 and HP18. The last, an HP18 driver gives
a good self-critique (read his side-bar) on what he did wrong in one
landing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1au6V1E5CyI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC55ikXmo5I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXwy7dsLndM

Duster,

As I mentioned earlier, Bob Kuykendall has already written a narrative on
large-span flaps. Read it carefully along with the associated links.
http://tinyurl.com/First-HP-Flight

The following is the link to the HP-18 landing you mentioned in your post.
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/St..._HP_flight.htm

I'm quite sure that a CFIG experienced in a PIK-20B, 1-35, or Schreder
sailplane will be able to provide the needed instruction to safely
transition to a large-span-flap sailplane.

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder




"Duster" wrote in message
...

On Aug 19, 5:39 pm, BobW wrote:
On 8/19/2012 1:55 PM, Dave Nadler wrote: On Saturday, August 18, 2012
9:25:58 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
... I can ease into using the flaps.

That is one of the most dangerous things you can do with a flapped
glider.
Do your homework and make sure you understand why.
If you've had a CFI briefing and aren't clear on this,
find another CFI with more appropriate experience.

"What Dave said!"

Where you don't want to end up is overshooting your field because of
improper
use of arguably the most effective/draggy/energy-reducing landing devices
semi-commonly found on sailplanes (i.e. large-deflection landing flaps).

You'll love the glider and the landing flaps !
But be safe and get proper training first !
I've watched some really unfortunate results
when proper training didn't precede flying...

Again..."What Dave said!" (It's painful to watch 'really unfortunate
results,'
even when nothing gets bent. It's even more painful to watch a glider
getting
bent when 'proper training' is willfully ignored!)

IMHO, there's nothing fundamentally difficult or dangerous in the correct
use
of large-deflection landing flaps. I - safely, unexcitingly - transitioned
to
them from a 1-26 with a total of 128 hours, all in 2-22'2, 2-33's and
1-26's.
That was in 1975...no instructors to talk with, no world wide web to
research.
So did my partner with roughly similar time/experience. Never willingly
went
back to spoilers unless giving rides.

The devil is always in the details, and the details of proper use of
large-deflection flaps were/are not particularly well hidden.



Best Regards, Dave

Have fun!

Bob - 2,000 hrs of large deflection-landing flapped ship time - W.

Agreed, and it's those details that we need to squeeze out of
experienced flappers like you. Maybe when you have time you can write
at least a short narrative on how you would instruct a newbie to flap-
only ships. Here are a few YouTube videos that focus on landings.
First is a 1-35 on base/final. Note the extreme attitude at what I
think I hear him say are full flaps. Before touchdown, he retracts
partial flaps, and note what happens next. Read the notes made with
the post (no, not the idiotic comments that follow). Good on these
guys who post less-than-perfect flights so we can all learn. The other
two videos show an HP11, HP16 and HP18. The last, an HP18 driver gives
a good self-critique (read his side-bar) on what he did wrong in one
landing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1au6V1E5CyI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC55ikXmo5I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXwy7dsLndM

Duster,

As I mentioned earlier, Bob Kuykendall has already written a narrative on
large-span flaps. Read it carefully along with the associated links.
http://tinyurl.com/First-HP-Flight

This is the HP-18 link that I meant to post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI1kP0KRq2Y

I'm quite sure that a CFIG experienced in a PIK-20B, 1-35, or Schreder
sailplane will be able to provide the needed instruction to safely
transition to a large-span-flap sailplane.

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder




"Duster" wrote in message
...

On Aug 19, 5:39 pm, BobW wrote:
On 8/19/2012 1:55 PM, Dave Nadler wrote: On Saturday, August 18, 2012
9:25:58 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
... I can ease into using the flaps.

That is one of the most dangerous things you can do with a flapped
glider.
Do your homework and make sure you understand why.
If you've had a CFI briefing and aren't clear on this,
find another CFI with more appropriate experience.

"What Dave said!"

Where you don't want to end up is overshooting your field because of
improper
use of arguably the most effective/draggy/energy-reducing landing devices
semi-commonly found on sailplanes (i.e. large-deflection landing flaps).

You'll love the glider and the landing flaps !
But be safe and get proper training first !
I've watched some really unfortunate results
when proper training didn't precede flying...

Again..."What Dave said!" (It's painful to watch 'really unfortunate
results,'
even when nothing gets bent. It's even more painful to watch a glider
getting
bent when 'proper training' is willfully ignored!)

IMHO, there's nothing fundamentally difficult or dangerous in the correct
use
of large-deflection landing flaps. I - safely, unexcitingly - transitioned
to
them from a 1-26 with a total of 128 hours, all in 2-22'2, 2-33's and
1-26's.
That was in 1975...no instructors to talk with, no world wide web to
research.
So did my partner with roughly similar time/experience. Never willingly
went
back to spoilers unless giving rides.

The devil is always in the details, and the details of proper use of
large-deflection flaps were/are not particularly well hidden.



Best Regards, Dave

Have fun!

Bob - 2,000 hrs of large deflection-landing flapped ship time - W.

Agreed, and it's those details that we need to squeeze out of
experienced flappers like you. Maybe when you have time you can write
at least a short narrative on how you would instruct a newbie to flap-
only ships. Here are a few YouTube videos that focus on landings.
First is a 1-35 on base/final. Note the extreme attitude at what I
think I hear him say are full flaps. Before touchdown, he retracts
partial flaps, and note what happens next. Read the notes made with
the post (no, not the idiotic comments that follow). Good on these
guys who post less-than-perfect flights so we can all learn. The other
two videos show an HP11, HP16 and HP18. The last, an HP18 driver gives
a good self-critique (read his side-bar) on what he did wrong in one
landing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1au6V1E5CyI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC55ikXmo5I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXwy7dsLndM

Be careful of extrapolating from HP series to 1-35.
The 1-35 has, unfortunately, much less flap than HPs,
especially later "club" models IIRC.
Thus with the 1-35:
- it is more important to use full flap
- if airspeed is not carefully controlled and you get
to fast, you will float forever (not an issue with HPs).

Get a QUALIFIED instructor, and have fun !
Best Regards, Dave

The ultimate flap position on the original ASW20 was sometimes referred to as the "Jesus" flap. As I discovered when I first deployed it on mine, that is likely the expletive you will use. Any glider that has flaps that deploy much beyond 45 degrees will display quite different behavior, particularly pitch and attitude that takes some getting used to. Stall/spin behavior also changes and many pilots advise deploying extreme flaps only on final.. I didn't get any instruction, but followed colleagues advice to practice at altitude. Proceed with care!

Mike

Nice discussion on all things 1-35 he
http://members.goldengate.net/~tmren...35/ramb135.htm

Bob

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:25:58 -0700 (PDT), son_of_flubber
wrote:

On Saturday, August 18, 2012 12:21:29 PM UTC-4, Duster wrote:

What ship are you training to fly in? I fly an all-flapped 1-35 and

there are some good written reviews on how to fly them.

I want to transition to a SGS 1-35 after flying a Grob 102 and ASK-21. Initial landing will
be on a 5500 foot runway at a low traffic airport, so I can ease into
using the flaps. I have a CFI-G who has flown 600 hours (years ago)in
a SGS 1-35 who will brief on the ground.

The other suggestions are much appreciated. I don't fly power, but I may take some
lessons in a Cessna 150 per Charli's suggestion. I plan to fly a few
hours of power instruction (just for general knowledge) in any case.

On Aug 18, 11:00*pm, T wrote:
We have transitioned pilots into single seat gliders with no spoilers, just landing flaps with no issues.
A good read and ground school session on aerodynamic effects AMD talking with those that have flown flaps only and then let them go.
A god long runway for landing helps. Flown both the 1-35 and Nugget, LP-15.

T

As someone with not much flying experience who transitioned to a
1-35 , with 50 landings since, let me say this: You will get many
different opinions, all valid, but contradictory and confusing. Just
use the method described in the POH at least 10 times before fooling
around with it. My last 10 landings haven't made as good as my first
10 since I'm now trying variations. The first one was perfect! :-)

I'm not convinced that a lot of experience in planes other than 1-35's
will help much since at full flaps the stick has to go a long way
forward, and the speed drops off really fast, and the nose drops a
lot. Be ready for something of much greater magnitude than the little
effects "normal" spoilers have on the glide slope. That experience
conditions you to using spoilers, not flpas. Apply the flaps slowly
so your stick hand can keep up with the spoiler hand and watch the
airspeed and thr PIOs. :-) It's a bit wierd, but you will come to
see it as just different.

Just use the POH until you get used to it.

Martin