Good/bad experiences with Tow Vehicle Syndicates?

On the contrary - well maintained modern small cars with sophisticated
suspension make excellent towing vehicles.
For some reason (presumably liability and driving style) manufacturers
lower the tow rating of their vehicles in the USA. The POH where the OP
lives specifies that the vehicle is good for the weight. There is a
relatively low speed limit for these trailers. Not sure which one
applies here - but either 0km/h or 110km/h are the european open road
towing limits. Under these conditions the combination is safe,
convenient, economical and normal practice. It is also a lot less work
to drive.

The massive - un aerodynamic trailer for my 19m single piece wing
Kestrel is a beast. I definitely want to be towing it with my all wheel
drive looong wheelbase Volvo with an "authoritative" 2tons on the
wheels. This has more to do with lousy trailer dynamics than general
towing. This combination has the mass, power and stability to tow the
said trailer at 140km/h if I were insane enough to do so - our freeway
limit is 120km/h and I generally stick to 100-110 - it keeps the
excitement level down.

Towing a decent European trailer with my 15m inside things were much
better with a much smaller car. Easier to drive, more controlled ride,
better aerodynamics on the tow vehicle.

The big heavy car is comparatively clumsy and has its own dynamics that
make it a little less controlled in the suspension area. The absolutely
worst towing experience I ever had was retrieving the 15m with a Jeep
Cherokee. Same combo that was stable and safe at 110km/h behind a
1200kg, 1600cc hatchback became unruly and twitchy. Why? High roll
centre, short wheelbase, off road tyres with lots of lateral distortion
- coupled with a lot of mass = unruly tow vehicle that was yanking the
trailer all over the place.

Never been able to understand the obsession with bigger is better.
Lots of folk tow long distances, very happily and safely with something
like a DSG Jetta - try it - it might be a revelation.

(and yes - I have driven a fair amount in the USA - East coast ,
Colorado mountains, California...)
--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

My (European) knowledge of cars and towing limits is a bit rusty, but for what it’s worth:

The auto company I worked for had a European tow limitation that required pulling up a 12 percent (IIRC) hill. I think it was a company standard rather than a legal requirement.

I had no direct experience of USA practice re towing limits, but in other contexts (engine performance when not towing) there was mention of American vehicles having to perform on Pikes Peak, a well known USA mountain? It may be that sort of expectation that led to lower towing limits in the USA for European vehicles – or as suggested above, it may just be caution re legal liabilities.

Another thing – not only is wheelbase a significant factor, so is rear overhang. A short wheelbase car with a long overhanging boot (Europe)/trunk (USA) is a bad combination, and leads to a low maximum stable speed above which anti-snaking has to be used – either the driver’s skill, or an anti-snake device. The latter are commonly available in Europe.

I leave to others to recommend what is best for towing in the USA, but I suspect that what we can get away with in Europe is not suitable for at least mountainous areas of the USA.

Chris N.

Do people ever form Tow Vehicle Syndicates? How does that work out?

I really never needed that.
I tow my 1300kg ArcusM Cobra trailer with a Ford C-max 1.6L TDI
diesel. That's also the max. legal towed mass for that car.
Excellent economy, excellent stabilty (surely much better than with my
partner's much heavier VW Tiguan).
Sure, we don't have many mountain passes at very hig density
altitudes, but still the turbocharged engine should cope with that. I
cross the Alps many times a year, though.

My trailer has single axle, surge brakes, and the stabilizing hitch
(it has friction pads surrounding the tow ball). The latter made quite
a difference compared to my previous set-up, which I used for years
anyway.

Speed limits in most of Europe are at 80kmh. By accepting the risk of
a moderate sanction, I usually drive at 99kmh GPS speed. At these
speeds, I hardly notice having a heavy trailer behind me.

In some countries, the limit is unchanged with car trailers, so I can
drive at up to 130kmh with no problem even when overtaking trucks.

Of course, you need to adapt your driving style to the heavy trailer.
No abrupt movements of the steering wheel, slower cruising downhill,
keep safe distance from preceding vehicles.

aldo cernezzi
www.voloavela.it

On Thu, 4 Oct 2012 21:34:46 -0700 (PDT), 2G
wrote:


Would you have the same disregard for your gliders POH? I would certainly hope not! Tow ratings are set for some VERY good reasons - don't ignore them! Furthermore, they are set with MUCH shorter trailers in mind than glider trailers. I suggest that you Google "trailer towing accidents" before you decide to disregard these limitations.


Sorry?
As I mentioned in my posting, the limitations *in Germany* are
1.500/3.000 lbs.
No need to disregard any limitation.

And, no, there a re no further limitations on the length of the
trailer.


Andreas

On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:34:24 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 10/2/2012 8:14 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:

The insurance cost of adding a second vehicle with liability

insurance will only cost me $20 a year.



Wow! Having my 1989 Caravan minivan on my insurance is $200/year, only

$50/year cheaper than our 2002 Camry, both for liability only. What

company are you with? Are you the only person on the policy?

Yes. I'm the only person on the policy and in the household. That's the reason it is so low. The logic works thus... I can only drive one car at once. The insurance company benefits when I'm paying for collision insurance on the new car while it sits in the garage and I'm off driving the old tow car that has only liability insurance.

On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 8:41:31 PM UTC-4, Andreas Maurer wrote:

Hmmmm.... I had a Golf IV Variant in Germany, and it also had that

1.000 lbs limitation - but only if the trailer did not have brakes.



The limit for a trailer with brakes was the mentioned 3.000 lbs limit.





Could you check again if you are reading your car's manual correctly,

please? I find it hard to believe that VW is limiting its cars in such

a drastic way.

The USA tow limit is 1000 lbs with/without brakes. I confirmed this with VW USA.

I speculate the following reasons:

There is no common across all manufacturers standard method to rate towing capacity in the USA. Some companies set the tow limit high and some set it low.

Marketing - the Golf is marketed as a sporty car, not a workhorse. VW would prefer to sell the more profitable SUVs to people who tow trailers.

US Drivers - VW (correctly) does not trust US drivers to drive the recommended speed. US drivers do understand how kinetic energy increases as a function of speed.

US Topography - There are of course mountains in Europe, but the USA has mountains in the desert and relatively long towing distances in the desert.

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:12:15 AM UTC-4, Andreas Maurer wrote:
Sorry?
As I mentioned in my posting, the limitations *in Germany* are
1.500/3.000 lbs.
No need to disregard any limitation.
And, no, there a re no further limitations on the length of the
trailer.

Andreas

Amazing, the Germans are switching to lbs rather than kg now...

On Monday, October 1, 2012 10:22:31 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
I own a very fuel efficient car (40+ mpg) that handles the long drive to the airport at minimal cost. But my fuel efficient car is not suitable for towing a glider trailer... especially if I have to tow the trailer out of a muddy field.



So if I buy a glider, do I need to trade in my very small car for something like a Subaru Forester?



Do people ever form Tow Vehicle Syndicates? How does that work out?

I can confirm a 1999 2.5L Subaru Outback did very well stability and braking wise when towing our Pfeiffer trailer where as a 6cyl 1992 Camry didn't do so well. Probably due to the fatter tires, better suspension, and 4 wheel disc brakes with ABS. We could easily hit 75mph with the Subaru without any swaying.

Although, I did miss having the 6cyl engine with an extra 0.5L of displacement on the long steep grades... (Daydreaming about an H6-3.0 Outback now)

On 10/6/2012 5:15 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:12:15 AM UTC-4, Andreas Maurer wrote:
Sorry?
As I mentioned in my posting, the limitations *in Germany* are
1.500/3.000 lbs.
No need to disregard any limitation.
And, no, there a re no further limitations on the length of the
trailer.

Andreas

Amazing, the Germans are switching to lbs rather than kg now...

Not so amazing - they did use a period instead of the comma. That's like
a King's X.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

On 10/6/2012 10:19 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 10/6/2012 5:15 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:12:15 AM UTC-4, Andreas Maurer wrote:
Sorry?
As I mentioned in my posting, the limitations *in Germany* are
1.500/3.000 lbs.
No need to disregard any limitation.
And, no, there a re no further limitations on the length of the
trailer.

Andreas

Amazing, the Germans are switching to lbs rather than kg now...

Not so amazing - they did use a period instead of the comma.

As do many other countries.

Tony 6N