Oxygen Generators

On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:12:40 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Agreed, but is there anything *legal* that suits your needs and yet is

certified above 10,000'? You don't really need O2 below that.



How about something proper, that's really small (fits behind the seat, etc.,

is easily removeable, and can be filled after each flight?



"Bill D" wrote in message

...

On Tuesday, September 24, 2013 10:41:31 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:

What have you guys got against a proper oxygen system?





1. Size

2. Weight



Especially in 2-seaters, a decent sized compressed O2 system eats into the

allowable cockpit payload and often takes up space the pilot would rather

use for something else.

I think any portable O2 system is "legal".

I've searched the FAR's without finding mention of Oxygen other than 91.211, 121.333, 121.237 and 135.89 which just spell out when a flight crew has to use it.

The AOPA has a good article at:
http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/...se-in-Aviation
I like the part which says "oxygen is oxygen" and the use of ABO or some other source is "at the operators discretion".

LOX systems are "use it or lose it" since it eventually boils off whereas compressed O2 systems can set almost forever without losing pressure. There has to be a convenient way for patients who need LOX all the time to get refills.

On Monday, September 23, 2013 9:23:44 AM UTC-7, JohnDeRosa wrote:
Has anyone investigated the use of an oxygen generator rather than carrying an O2 cylinder?



According to this study from sea level up to 18,000 it seems to work. http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=get...er= ADA371747



"We conclude that from sea level to 18,000', molecular sieve based O2 concentrators are capable of providing medical grade supplemental O2 for at least 8 hours."



Pricey but for those the fly with O2 every day then over the long term it would be cheaper as there would be no refills. Here is a unit for $3K. http://www.emedstores.com/xpo2-porta...extra-battery/



Might they be less dangerous in an accident? Is battery power an issue?



- John

A couple of good articles on O2 from Mountain High.

http://www.craggyaero.com/O2main.htm

O2 can be purchase at many industrial gas outlets and is relatively inexpensive. ABO is the same as welding O2 but usually is a little more expensive and comes in a bottle marked ABO. Large bottles have the downside that you usually have to rent them and you need a transfill system to fill the glider bottles. If you take your glider bottle to the outlet they will check the test date on the bottle, if out of date they probably will not fill it, so be aware. The bottle test date is not an FAA requirement. It is regulated by the DOT.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 11:18:36 AM UTC-6, Richard wrote:
On Monday, September 23, 2013 9:23:44 AM UTC-7, JohnDeRosa wrote:

Has anyone investigated the use of an oxygen generator rather than carrying an O2 cylinder?







According to this study from sea level up to 18,000 it seems to work. http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=get...er= ADA371747







"We conclude that from sea level to 18,000', molecular sieve based O2 concentrators are capable of providing medical grade supplemental O2 for at least 8 hours."







Pricey but for those the fly with O2 every day then over the long term it would be cheaper as there would be no refills. Here is a unit for $3K. http://www.emedstores.com/xpo2-porta...extra-battery/







Might they be less dangerous in an accident? Is battery power an issue?







- John



A couple of good articles on O2 from Mountain High.



http://www.craggyaero.com/O2main.htm



O2 can be purchase at many industrial gas outlets and is relatively inexpensive. ABO is the same as welding O2 but usually is a little more expensive and comes in a bottle marked ABO. Large bottles have the downside that you usually have to rent them and you need a transfill system to fill the glider bottles. If you take your glider bottle to the outlet they will check the test date on the bottle, if out of date they probably will not fill it, so be aware. The bottle test date is not an FAA requirement. It is regulated by the DOT.



Richard

www.craggyaero.com

A counter guy once showed me how a bottle of O2 gets the ABO sticker. If the rube at the counter asks for "aviation oxygen" he grabbed a sticker on the way to the warehouse and slapped it on the first O2 cylinder he found. In their computer the SKU for "aviation oxygen" differed from the one for welding oxygen only in price. $112 for ABO and $25 for welding O2.

FAR 91.211 No person may operate blah, blah, blah
(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless **each
occupant** of the aircraft is provided with supplemental oxygen.

Passengers are occupants.


"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:12:40 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Agreed, but is there anything *legal* that suits your needs and yet is

certified above 10,000'? You don't really need O2 below that.



How about something proper, that's really small (fits behind the seat,
etc.,

is easily removeable, and can be filled after each flight?



"Bill D" wrote in message

...

On Tuesday, September 24, 2013 10:41:31 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:

What have you guys got against a proper oxygen system?





1. Size

2. Weight



Especially in 2-seaters, a decent sized compressed O2 system eats into
the

allowable cockpit payload and often takes up space the pilot would
rather

use for something else.

I think any portable O2 system is "legal".

I've searched the FAR's without finding mention of Oxygen other than
91.211, 121.333, 121.237 and 135.89 which just spell out when a flight
crew has to use it.

The AOPA has a good article at:
http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/...se-in-Aviation
I like the part which says "oxygen is oxygen" and the use of ABO or some
other source is "at the operators discretion".

LOX systems are "use it or lose it" since it eventually boils off whereas
compressed O2 systems can set almost forever without losing pressure.
There has to be a convenient way for patients who need LOX all the time to
get refills.

On Monday, September 23, 2013 2:39:28 PM UTC-8, JohnDeRosa wrote:
On Monday, September 23, 2013 12:56:34 PM UTC-5, Vaughn wrote: Fly one with with a pulse oximeter ($39.99 at Walmart) to verify that it works for you... Vaughn Actually only $35 at Walmart. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Choicemmed...r-1ct/17325061

Pulse oximeters are poor indicators of O2 saturation for glider pilots. Peripheral (as in fingers)vaso-constriction is common at the temperature and altitudes we fly. I used one for a few years and was over consuming Oxygen in an effort to keep the saturation above 95%. I use a EDS delivery system and consistantly got values of around 86% when above 6000 feet. I actually went to a Pulmonologist to see what, if anything, was wrong with my lungs and found that my lung capacity and ventilation were above normal. So I tossed out the oximeter and just trust the equipment to deliver the right amount of O2. So far so good.

wrote, On 9/26/2013 12:10 PM:
On Monday, September 23, 2013 2:39:28 PM UTC-8, JohnDeRosa wrote:
On Monday, September 23, 2013 12:56:34 PM UTC-5, Vaughn wrote:
Fly one with with a pulse oximeter ($39.99 at Walmart) to verify
that it works for you... Vaughn Actually only $35 at Walmart.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Choicemmed...r-1ct/17325061


Pulse oximeters are poor indicators of O2 saturation for glider
pilots. Peripheral (as in fingers)vaso-constriction is common at the
temperature and altitudes we fly. I used one for a few years and was
over consuming Oxygen in an effort to keep the saturation above 95%.
I use a EDS delivery system and consistantly got values of around 86%
when above 6000 feet. I actually went to a Pulmonologist to see
what, if anything, was wrong with my lungs and found that my lung
capacity and ventilation were above normal. So I tossed out the
oximeter and just trust the equipment to deliver the right amount of
O2. So far so good.

Since I can keep O2 saturation above 95% at even 18000' using the normal
EDS settings, does that mean I have excellent circulation? Or really
good lung function?

It does drop into the 90-95% range sometimes, but that's also when I
realize my breathing is very shallow; i.e., I don't seem to be inhaling
very much after I hear the "poosh" of the EDS oxygen pulse.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

That's amazing at your age Eric. Probably a defective oximeter.

wrote, On 9/27/2013 9:57 AM:
That's amazing at your age Eric. Probably a defective oximeter.

I have an expensive, older Minolta and a much newer cheapie, but they
read quite close together. I'll take them both along next time for a
better comparison.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

On Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:49:23 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Since I can keep O2 saturation above 95% at even 18000' using the normal
EDS settings, does that mean I have excellent circulation? Or really
good lung function?


It could also mean that you breathing too rapidly or deeply (mild hyperventilating). Hyperventilation will dilate your finger blood vessels and RAISE the pulse oximeter saturation number. And hyperventilation will simultaneously constrict your cerebral blood vessels, and thereby LOWER the O2 saturation of the blood going to your brain (thereby inducing mild hypoxia). Vasodilation may also lower the temperature of your core and induce the mental dulling effects of mild hypothermia.

See http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/...-p18-20-22.pdf

It does drop into the 90-95% range sometimes, but that's also when I
realize my breathing is very shallow; i.e., I don't seem to be inhaling
very much after I hear the "poosh" of the EDS oxygen pulse.

If you're making any conscious effort to "breath", you may be mildly hyperventilating.

A common way to breath at the correct rate is to talk (or sing) out loud, this distracts you from thinking about your respiration rate. The autonomic nervous system works best without conscious or emotional intervention.

son_of_flubber wrote, On 9/29/2013 4:47 PM:
On Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:49:23 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell
wrote:
Since I can keep O2 saturation above 95% at even 18000' using the
normal EDS settings, does that mean I have excellent circulation?
Or really good lung function?


It could also mean that you breathing too rapidly or deeply (mild
hyperventilating). Hyperventilation will dilate your finger blood
vessels and RAISE the pulse oximeter saturation number. And
hyperventilation will simultaneously constrict your cerebral blood
vessels, and thereby LOWER the O2 saturation of the blood going to
your brain (thereby inducing mild hypoxia). Vasodilation may also
lower the temperature of your core and induce the mental dulling
effects of mild hypothermia.

See
http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/...-p18-20-22.pdf


It does drop into the 90-95% range sometimes, but that's also when
I realize my breathing is very shallow; i.e., I don't seem to be
inhaling very much after I hear the "poosh" of the EDS oxygen
pulse.

If you're making any conscious effort to "breath", you may be mildly
hyperventilating.

A common way to breath at the correct rate is to talk (or sing) out
loud, this distracts you from thinking about your respiration rate.
The autonomic nervous system works best without conscious or
emotional intervention.

I wonder if there might be a training effect from the "poosh" of the EDS
system, such that a pilot tends to stop inhaling sooner than he
otherwise would.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)