Florida Grand Prix

Huge thanks to the folks at Seminole Lake Gliderport and to Andy McQuigg
for conceiving of and hosting the first Florida Grand Prix. The wet
weather relented on Sunday and we got a beautiful blue sky full of cu's
and a well-called task to match. I won't recount the race or results.
That's for the organizers. I will say that the GP format worked well and
was tremendous fun to fly. I have no problem with the conventional
glider race format, but the GP does make for a very enjoyable and
satisfying change. Everyone starting together and flying in the same air
is great. There is less incentive for leeching in the GP. One can't win
by following, at some point you have to physically get out ahead of your
competitors. We had a max start height and a minimum finish height, so
no safety issues there. The only safety issue I saw was my own stupidity
regarding the start. I noodled around and ended up a couple of miles on
the wrong side of the line too close to the gate opening time for my
class. Scooting back to the line, I was not thinking about the class
that was just starting so I was head-on to them. Really dumb on my part.
The start line is not very wide, so it would have been much smarter to
have flown around the end. No rules needed, just remind everyone to stay
out from in front of the start line.

WB

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

This was truly a ball! I cannot wait for the next one! We are going to have a great winter flying these events together!

Sean
7T

P.S. I will try to remember to close my spoilers next time!

The popularity of this format on r.a.s. motivated a question on the pilot opinion poll about whether you'd like to see it included in regular regional rules. I hope that people watching here will answer, and especially that the people who now have some experience with this format will chime in and add to the comments section

John Cochrane

John,

I think GP its totally safe in small classes. I would not do it if the class was larger than say, 10-15 gliders.

So maybe this would be a fun thing to have in the stack for a small 18 or 15 meter class at a regionals? Even in Sports you could do handicap ranges and remove the handicap allowing for level racing and first to finish wins scenario's! This was popular this weekend and nobody really cared about the handicaps. They were happy to forget them and race level, glider to glider!

Once the class gets much larger than 10 (with ranging experience levels, etc) it may create some linear level of chaos around the starting line. This might be considered higher risk or perhaps even unwise. Perhaps a longer starting line would spread out the field more?

With 10 in the air (3 classes, 2, 4 and 4) starting in 5 minute stagger (basically everyone in the same area getting ready to start, starting, etc it was very fun and manageable. Glider behaviors were VERY predictable. You know that guy/gal had to come to the line and start at some point. There was less randomness to the pilots behaviors. Once on course, it was beautiful to know that you were actually racing!

I also like the idea of Grand Prix out of a 5 mile cylinder so there are many options to exit the starting area but it all happens at one time. This might work for slightly larger classes. For example out the top?

Bottom line: It is ALOT of fun knowing that glider B is even with you (glider A) 90 minutes into the task and that you will need to find a way to get ahead if you are going to beat him RATHER THAN knowing you started behind him and all you need to do is lock on and win. I think our open starting gate (start anytime) promotes loitering around unpredictably AND encourages the classic tactic or starting last, catching and leeching even more than you think!

This GP concept could be really, really fun for pilots and the rules and scoring is incredibly easy. We did the scoring on a simple spreadsheet using winscore to quickly validate start height, turnpoints achieved and finish height. Basically elapsed time (lowest wins!).

Link to GP rules he https://sites.google.com/site/sgpflu...es-and-scoring

Best,

Sean
7T

On Wednesday, October 2, 2013 1:03:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
The popularity of this format on r.a.s. motivated a question on the pilot opinion poll about whether you'd like to see it included in regular regional rules. I hope that people watching here will answer, and especially that the people who now have some experience with this format will chime in and add to the comments section



John Cochrane

Agreed. A set start time eliminates gaggling and leeching. Our current timed start was developed because historically you needed to fly through the gate, and the gate could not handle everyone at the same time. No more gate, and a wide start area makes starting everyone at the same time a bit more practical.

The appeal of ending start gate roulette and leeching is very high.

There are a lot of open questions. Yes, how many gliders can we safely handle. Here the issue is the first few gagggles, which will inevitably have most of the fleet. My sense like yours is that 10-15 is a reasonable maximum. Larger numbers may be safe too. At world contests everyone also leaves at the same time in a big gaggle of 40 or more, they just wait a few hours to do it!

Another question is whether pilots will think it's fair to start everyone at the same time. I often seem to coast around for hours, then suddenly I'm at 2000' struggling when it's time to go. We don't always or even often fly in such predictable conditions that everyone can be right at MSH at the edge of the cylinder when it's time to go. One might say, well, that's the luck of the draw,but pilots have to like the format and if the whole race ends up being "where were you when the start gun went off" I think they won't find it that much fun.

The question on the poll, which I'll suggest for fall RC meeting if it gets enough support, is to allow this start with no other changes to rules, by waiver, for regionals, so we can build some experience and answer the above questions. I know that "real" grand prix have all sorts of other rules like start lines, assigned tasks, and 0/0 finishes, but we need to KISS and not go writing a whole additional rule book. And the point really is not to create a "real" fire-eating grand prix, but to see if starting at the same time produces a more enjoyable race by eliminating start time games and leeching, without introducing safety or other problems.

I hope you put your comments on the poll

John Cochrane

If you know the start time is going to be when the "gate opens" (to use familiar terminology), pilots will need pay more attention to their positioning than they have in previous starting formats. GP starts will change (for the better I think) the way we will all need to think about starting for sure. Much like sailing, the start will be more important than it has been in soaring.

The key is to have the CD give something like a 30-45 minute countdown (depending on the strength of the day) so that everyone is able to prepare themselves to get into the best possible position as the start time nears. No excuses are worthwhile if that kind of lead time is offered to all pilots (countdown starting 15 minutes after last launch I imagine). I agree that if the CD just says...GO, with little warning, it might be seen by some (many) as unfair. But that is not how it should happen, ever.

Also, it will be fairly easy to catch the gaggle if you get a late or low start. The gaggles will be together from the get go but will thin out quickly. You still need to BEAT THE GAGGLE if you want to win or even place well!!! So this concept might actually work out really well to reduce leeching and improve "racing" even if the gaggle exists early. I would actually think that starting a minute back to see where everyone goes first would be an advantage, for example. Pick the faster gaggle, try to catch and pass it, and go for it by trying to get ahead and extend your lead.

The great part of GP is that you have less room for error. Great flying is rewarded, mistakes or sticking in the gaggle is punished greatly as you can end up in the back of the pack pretty quickly!

This GP concept might have more merit that we all imagine. We will learn more as we all try it over the winter and in the future! Clearly their is a reason why the GP idea has been so successful at the top levels of our sport. ITS FUN. ITS AWESOME. ITS EXCITING!!!

Come on boys. Get yourselves down to Florida for a weekend!

Schedule here --- https://sites.google.com/site/sgpflusa/schedule

Sean
7T

If you know the start time is going to be when the "gate opens" (to use familiar terminology), pilots will need pay more attention to their positioning than they have in previous starting formats. GP starts will change (for the better I think) the way we will all need to think about starting for sure. Much like sailing, the start will be more important than it has been in soaring.

The key is to have the CD give something like a 30-45 minute countdown (depending on the strength of the day) so that everyone is able to prepare themselves to get into the best possible position as the start time nears. No excuses are worthwhile if that kind of lead time is offered to all pilots (countdown starting 15 minutes after last launch I imagine). I agree that if the CD just says...GO, with little warning, it might be seen by some (many) as unfair. But that is not how it should happen, ever.

Also, it will be fairly easy to catch the gaggle if you get a late or low start. The gaggles will be together from the get go but will thin out quickly. You still need to BEAT THE GAGGLE if you want to win or even place well!!! So this concept might actually work out really well to reduce leeching and improve "racing" even if the gaggle exists early. I would actually think that starting a minute back to see where everyone goes first would be an advantage, for example. Pick the faster gaggle, try to catch and pass it, and go for it by trying to get ahead and extend your lead.

The great part of GP is that you have less room for error. Great flying is rewarded, mistakes or sticking in the gaggle is punished greatly as you can end up in the back of the pack pretty quickly!

This GP concept might have even more merit than we all imagine. We will learn more as we all try it over the winter and in the future! Clearly there is a reason why the GP idea has been so successful at the top levels of our sport. ITS FUN! ITS RACING! ITS EXCITING!!!

Come on boys. Get yourselves down to Florida for a weekend!

Schedule here --- https://sites.google.com/site/sgpflusa/schedule

On Thursday, October 3, 2013 8:52:25 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Agreed. A set start time eliminates gaggling and leeching. Our current timed start was developed because historically you needed to fly through the gate, and the gate could not handle everyone at the same time. No more gate, and a wide start area makes starting everyone at the same time a bit more practical. The appeal of ending start gate roulette and leeching is very high. There are a lot of open questions. Yes, how many gliders can we safely handle. Here the issue is the first few gagggles, which will inevitably have most of the fleet. My sense like yours is that 10-15 is a reasonable maximum. Larger numbers may be safe too. At world contests everyone also leaves at the same time in a big gaggle of 40 or more, they just wait a few hours to do it! Another question is whether pilots will think it's fair to start everyone at the same time. I often seem to coast around for hours, then suddenly I'm at 2000' struggling when it's time to go. We don't always or even often fly in such predictable conditions that everyone can be right at MSH at the edge of the cylinder when it's time to go. One might say, well, that's the luck of the draw,but pilots have to like the format and if the whole race ends up being "where were you when the start gun went off" I think they won't find it that much fun. The question on the poll, which I'll suggest for fall RC meeting if it gets enough support, is to allow this start with no other changes to rules, by waiver, for regionals, so we can build some experience and answer the above questions. I know that "real" grand prix have all sorts of other rules like start lines, assigned tasks, and 0/0 finishes, but we need to KISS and not go writing a whole additional rule book. And the point really is not to create a "real" fire-eating grand prix, but to see if starting at the same time produces a more enjoyable race by eliminating start time games and leeching, without introducing safety or other problems. I hope you put your comments on the poll John Cochrane

From what have observed, the effect is more the opposite. First, it makes it the good tactic to start and stay with the group as much as possible. Then the objective is to be the high guy in the last thermal. Beat everybody home and you win.
It is remarkably hard to beat a fast gaggle, but very easy to be soundly beaten by it.
As for the start, if you are in the wrong place and low, you're pretty much hosed unless you have a remarkable flight.
It does have the favorable characteristic of eliminating the painful game of trying to out wait the group so as to start last in the gaggle.
The attraction , and a very real one for some(many?), is the sense of racing because the pilot sees the other gliders he is competing with.
Another view
UH

You may be right, but if you watch the playbacks of the FAI GP World Championship (thermal flatlands) the winners typically break away early and stay away. A bit like a road cycling race. Try to get out of sight and out of mind of the pack.

Regardless it will be interesting to see the gaggle tactics in GP. I see (and so do the pro's apparently) as it as being conservative in GP to join and remain with the gaggle even in flatland thermal flying.

Hope GP it catches on!

For the record, here are some good tracking video's:
(Usually the winners leave the gaggle and are well ahead)

https://vimeo.com/27014418
https://vimeo.com/27060949
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf7AOF0ECUc


Sean

From what have observed, the effect is more the opposite. First, it makes it the good tactic to start and stay with the group as much as possible. Then the objective is to be the high guy in the last thermal. Beat everybody home and you win.

It is remarkably hard to beat a fast gaggle, but very easy to be soundly beaten by it.

As for the start, if you are in the wrong place and low, you're pretty much hosed unless you have a remarkable flight.

It does have the favorable characteristic of eliminating the painful game of trying to out wait the group so as to start last in the gaggle.

The attraction , and a very real one for some(many?), is the sense of racing because the pilot sees the other gliders he is competing with.

Another view

UH

I think UH is right about strategy under grand prix rules, when beating the other guy by an inch is the same as by a mile. Then the right strategy is like a sailboat race. In the grand prix I watched, I was interested that they didn't do this as much as I thought.

But that's less obvious if we start a regular US race this way -- a time-limited task, TAT or MAT, with a group of gliders with different handicaps, out of a 5 mile start cylinder, and with cumulative 1000 point scoring.

Now leaving a cautious gaggle and piling on the miles is a good strategy. And the gaggle is less likely to stick together anyway.

Still, this is theory until we try it, and I hope we can try a few next year.

John Cochrane