Best cross country ship class

On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 08:56:30 -0700, tech.norcal wrote:

I do have time in our glass ship the PW-6 (two seat version of "world
class" PW-5). And I LOVE it. I was hoping to get checked out in our
PW-5 before the season ends, but that may not happen due to old man
winter stealing our fun.

I've flown a PW-5 about once, but for long enough to get a feel for it.
Be aware that its more like low/medium performance glass to fly (think
G102, SZD Junior, ASK-21 or Puchacz) than even mid 70's high performance
glass (e.g Pegase, Discus 1), let along anything more modern. The
instructor who said that flying a PW-5 was rather like flying a paper bag
wasn't wrong: its fairly slow and with a rather light wing loading.

I agree with John - get checked out in a modern two seater and a single
seater thats at least in the Discus 1 or Pegase class.

In the mean time if there's a Grob G103 in your area and you haven't
flown one, you could do a lot worse than adding that to your log book
before heading for Estrella. If nothing else, it will teach you quite a
bit about speed control in the circuit.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

With respect to fine pilots who have given worthwhile information in this thread, I'd highly recommend that you CALL (not email, blog, etc) someone with a great deal of experience in gliders. I can recommend 3 in your area that would be happy to spend the time talking directly to you about the pros and cons of ships and transition training. A 15 minute call will give you a great deal more information than this thread will and if you access local pilots, they will tailor the info to Western and Eastern Washington soaring conditions. Steve Northcraft is an LS8 driver who is also your regional SSA Director. Mike Newgard is the President of the SGC and flies a Ventus. Noel Wade runs the Dustup at EPH every year. Noel is currently transitioning from STD to 15M. All are excellent competition pilots. Their phone numbers can be found at the Seattle Glider Council website. Reach out to them. It definitely will be worth your while.

You know. The Germans have done a very good job designing their ships. They are all very, very good. Some people have a preference for blonds, or red heads, or dark hair. Some people go for long legs or long necks. You will love the ship you have.

My strongest advice is to consider the trailer first. A Cobra. Yes, there are several copies but....get a Cobra. Whatever ship is inside of the Cobra trailer is going to be wonderful.

The second STRONG suggestion is to get a one man rigging system. I use the Cobra system for both my gliders. I have been very happy. The only dings and dents in my planes are when people helped me rig instead of using the one-man-rigging system. People mean well but push and tug and lift and lower the wings at the wrong times and that is when I have obtained my "rashes.."

My experiences. My opinions.

My strongest advice is to consider the trailer first. A Cobra. Yes, there
are several copies but....get a Cobra. Whatever ship is inside of the Cob
ra trailer is going to be wonderful.

I second that. I've seen a few gliders obtain damage because of not-so ideal trailers.
A trailer might be fine if you're fit and have a strict checklist, but when you outlanded after a long flight you might not pay attention. It would be great if a well-designed trailer can save
you at this moment.

I got one after someone scratched my wing when he wasn't paying attention. And I've seen a few club gliders obtain damage because of bad trailers.

The second STRONG suggestion is to get a one man rigging system. I use the
Cobra system for both my gliders. I have been very happy. The only dings
and dents in my planes are when people helped me rig instead of using the
one-man-rigging system. People mean well but push and tug and lift and low
er the wings at the wrong times and that is when I have obtained my "rashes
."

Also true. Unfortunately you don't make a lot of friends when (de-)rigging your glider is a pain.

Roel

At your stage and budget (?), LS4 - 15m, no flaps, excellent brakes so
superb approach control, no vices and a very easy rig. In my opion slightly
better co-ordinated than a Discus.

Flapped gliders have much heavier wings (eg ASW20) AND you need two left
hands to achieve a seamless approach when setting airbrakes and flaps into
short fields.

Unflapped may delay the Glider Pilots Bad Back for a few years!

The LS4 "A" does not self connect and is a bit fiddly 'till you get the
hang of it but this is a minor inconvenience.

I had an LS4 A for 10 years plus various flapped and unflapped gliders so
am unbiased.

If you can afford a bit more, go for an LS8.

Unfortunately there is a maintenance issue with LS over documentation which
adds to the running cost to build into the equation.

Barney



At 08:11 17 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
LS6 would be a really good shout. You may find one of the later models
(LS6
b or C it think?) which would also give the 18 meter tips. Not to sure
about the cost though. In early 15 meter should be well within budget.

It has already been mentioned, but the DG tax ought to be a
consideration,
although not a deterrent. LS gliders are some of the most lovely gliders
to
fly. I have not flown a 6, but have 300 hours in the 8.




At 23:23 16 October 2013, wrote:
Great feedback, guys.

Based on this and word from my club mates, the guidance seems clearly on
th=
e side of flapped. =20

Given this, I've decided to pass on the very sweet, pristine Discus 2b
Rich=
ard is selling in Colorado. It's one of the nicest used ships I've ever
se=
en. A couple from my club happened to be in Colorado and had a look.
They=
report its a great ship and really enjoyed talking to Richard.

So, now I'm really down to WHICH awesome 15m flapped ship.
Ventus 2 - (can't find one in my budget at the moment)
ASW 27 - (of the two on wings and wheels, one has sold and the other one
is=
not responsive to my info requests)

Aside from the LAK, should there be other flapped, 15m ships in the $70k
or=
less range I should be looking at?

Perhaps a more relevant question to ask is "What is the best glider for me?" rather than "What is the best cross country ship?".

I'm not an expert, so I cannot give advice, but I don't understand why practically everyone on this thread is in favor of a pilot, who has not yet even been checked out on his club PW-5, trying to transition directly to a high performance glider.

I transitioned from SGS 2-33, to Blanik L-23, then quickly transitioned through a ASK-21 and a PW-6. Since the beginning of this season I've flown an SZD 51-1 Junior for about 50 hours in all sorts of conditions over changing terrain. I'm certainly not bored and I get better every time I fly. I've gotten much better at exploiting lift and I can much better handle strong turbulence and crosswind takeoffs and landings. I'm much better at reading the clouds and weather. The Junior has been an ideal learning platform for me.

The Junior seems to be designed for docility and durability. Look at the massive tail boom on a Junior some time. I can worry less about breaking the tail off when I land out, and I've heard that even experts do that some times. It would be rather discouraging to break a $70K ship on an early land out. Look at the tiny low drag tail boom on a high performance ship.

The other thing that I like about the Junior is that it climbs really well given the low wing loading, so I get the positive feedback of being able stay up even when I flub up. It is easy to fly and rewarding.

I did not want to get too much ship too soon, scare myself bad and ruin the sport forever.

I think the experts forget how much expertise they have, and how much a student needs to learn, and how much practice it takes. Sure, I'm flying a "paper bag", but I'm getting dam good at it and I'm having a blast.

I realize that I will have a lot to learn when/if I transition to a higher performance ship, but the perception and motor skills that I'm developing in the Junior will make that transition less of a crap shoot. A lot of things that I'm learning now (like finding lift) will apply directly to the slicker ship.

On Monday, October 21, 2013 9:51:07 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
Perhaps a more relevant question to ask is "What is the best glider for me?" rather than "What is the best cross country ship?".



I'm not an expert, so I cannot give advice, but I don't understand why practically everyone on this thread is in favor of a pilot, who has not yet even been checked out on his club PW-5, trying to transition directly to a high performance glider.



I transitioned from SGS 2-33, to Blanik L-23, then quickly transitioned through a ASK-21 and a PW-6. Since the beginning of this season I've flown an SZD 51-1 Junior for about 50 hours in all sorts of conditions over changing terrain. I'm certainly not bored and I get better every time I fly. I've gotten much better at exploiting lift and I can much better handle strong turbulence and crosswind takeoffs and landings. I'm much better at reading the clouds and weather. The Junior has been an ideal learning platform for me.



The Junior seems to be designed for docility and durability. Look at the massive tail boom on a Junior some time. I can worry less about breaking the tail off when I land out, and I've heard that even experts do that some times. It would be rather discouraging to break a $70K ship on an early land out. Look at the tiny low drag tail boom on a high performance ship.



The other thing that I like about the Junior is that it climbs really well given the low wing loading, so I get the positive feedback of being able stay up even when I flub up. It is easy to fly and rewarding.



I did not want to get too much ship too soon, scare myself bad and ruin the sport forever.



I think the experts forget how much expertise they have, and how much a student needs to learn, and how much practice it takes. Sure, I'm flying a "paper bag", but I'm getting dam good at it and I'm having a blast.



I realize that I will have a lot to learn when/if I transition to a higher performance ship, but the perception and motor skills that I'm developing in the Junior will make that transition less of a crap shoot. A lot of things that I'm learning now (like finding lift) will apply directly to the slicker ship.

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:29:01 PM UTC-4, Seattle wrote:
I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.



An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is nice, but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.



All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country flights?



Thanks!

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:29:01 PM UTC-4, Seattle wrote:
I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.



An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is nice, but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.



All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country flights?



Thanks!

I don't think resale value has been mentioned. If you value money like me you should stick to S-H, ASW,or LS. (I hope my many LAK friends will forgive me!).I had to quit 10 years ago but owned a couple dozen gliders (some flapped, most not) and raced them several thousand hours. My fav was LS-8. Close second was Discus (I owned 4 Disci, one A, two B's, and a 2.) My fav flapped was ASW-20. I flew but never owned a 27 and can't say enough good about it. I hope you have 50 years of soaring fun to look forward to as I did at your level. Ed Byars

On Sunday, October 20, 2013 11:56:30 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Excellent! Thanks so much for the wisdom. They should make this post a "sticky" or something for folks buying a first-time XC glider. I do have time in our glass ship the PW-6 (two seat version of "world class" PW-5). And I LOVE it. I was hoping to get checked out in our PW-5 before the season ends, but that may not happen due to old man winter stealing our fun. However, I'll be spending a week in Estrella in November just flying everything they will let me. Also, a big reason for wanting my own ship is so I *can* take it to places like Ephrata, Wanatchee, and Northern Cali. I'll update as I go through the purchase process...

The "latest" ships like the V2, '27, D2, '28 provide one significant benefit relative to the '20, '24, Discus etc. That is that they have newer gelcoat.