Is the 200ft below Min Finish Height Rule Working?

Wow. That sure shut everyone up.....

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:52:11 PM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
Wow. That sure shut everyone up.....

What's your point?

Without context, that was either a perfectly judged final glide, or a really lucky rolling finish.

I've done both in the past, and squeakers are no fun, but they sure can be exhilarating! And tend to make you come in really high the next time!

And since he was over landable fields all the way in, how was this dangerous? At most places in US, this would be stupid, and wouldn't be worth the risk.

So - wanna be safe, stay high. Wanna take a chance, how much of a safety pad do you want? Too low, you are the PIC, you make the decision - land out safely, because breaking a glider is guaranteed to lose you the contest!

Don't like having to make tough decisions about final glides in order to win? Funny, I thought we were talking about racing...

Kirk
66

On Friday, January 24, 2014 8:10:34 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Good points Kevin.



On Friday, January 24, 2014 8:01:17 AM UTC-5, wrote:

If a 700ft finish is too low for a 18 meter national contest, then it is probably too low for a Regional. Yes, I understand the caveat of diving off a ridge and would not have a problem with that.







Last year at Perry and at Cordele, I was racing my Silent-IN, the 12 meter, 31/1 L/D.







We had 700 foot finishes at both sites. I understand this is comfortable for a modern 15 or 18 meter ship and leaves plenty of margin.







This does not leave much if any margin for me, and found that I needed to take extra height to be safe.







I am racing too, and this leaves us essentially racing to a different finish points. You are racing to a finish height that gives you an adequate safety margin and I am racing to the same point, but having to take more altitude for the same safety factor.







I understand UH's comment about immediately joining the pattern in an orderly fashion, but I think this could also be done with a 1000 foot finish and some more spoilers added.







This also gives a little more room is someone has a problem on landing and obstructs the runway.







Kevin



192

To add to Kevin's point. I have seen some pilots take such a long down-wind turn to final that I could have turned inside of their pattern and had plenty of room. If I were in his glider, that would be a real problem for a short wing glider. A higher finish hurts no one as long as we are all going to the same finish. If we keep the pattern tight, low energy or lower L/D gliders have an easier time transitioning to pattern and landing.

I was simply putting out an interesting video of an 18 yr. old kid doing a minimal energy, final glide into a rolling finish. Clearly this video is highly relevant to this thread.

I am a surprised that more RC supporters did not comment on the safety connotations of this kids final glide since it is clearly deemed unsafe and bad behavior by the RC. I am also surprised that more supporters of no MFH and less severe of a penalty did not comment in support of this kids exciting finish as what they want to do at their next contest.

I'll ask some questions this time around: Was this kids final glide decision safe or unsafe? Is successfully pulling off this kind of low finish fun or too risky? Is it a good thing for the sport of soaring or is it a bad thing? Is it good for soaring in the USA? Is it good for growing US contest participation or bad? Etc.

Here are some more "good" (US illegal) final glides:

1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZpRbg80kis

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZxvYMC2QvI

3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-xOZ2luGZA

Sean

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 4:42:50 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:52:11 PM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:

Wow. That sure shut everyone up.....



What's your point?



Without context, that was either a perfectly judged final glide, or a really lucky rolling finish.



I've done both in the past, and squeakers are no fun, but they sure can be exhilarating! And tend to make you come in really high the next time!



And since he was over landable fields all the way in, how was this dangerous? At most places in US, this would be stupid, and wouldn't be worth the risk.



So - wanna be safe, stay high. Wanna take a chance, how much of a safety pad do you want? Too low, you are the PIC, you make the decision - land out safely, because breaking a glider is guaranteed to lose you the contest!



Don't like having to make tough decisions about final glides in order to win? Funny, I thought we were talking about racing...



Kirk

66

Good luck trying that out west (any of the glider fields in Arizona), Parowan, Moriarty etc, etc. There's a big difference in executing the final glide in smooth late day European conditions over landable fields than over rocks and cactus in the late afternoon sink!

The rules have to anticipate the worst case conditions, not the most favorable!

Mike

Was it safe? Yes.

As Kirk points out at no time, once he was below 1000 ft, did he not have a landing option directly in front of him.

Was it fun? I doubt it, no one wants to cut it that close.
Is it good for US contests? It depends on the location, Uvalde, Hobbs, no. Somewhere in the middle of Kansas, could be.

But let's look at some other questions?

Was the pilot familiar with the area?
Did the pilot know he had landing options within the last 1-2 km


As has been pointed out on RAS before, many of the European teams do a good reconnaissance of the approach areas to the airport and determine what fields are landable on the approaches to the airport. This kind of preparation on the ground is really beneficial when you are on a marginal glide.

Another thing to consider is that the finish on that task was a 3 km cylinder and according to IGC rules, once you have crossed the finish line you don't have to land at the airport. According to his IGC file, he stopped his landing roll 2.5 km inside the cylinder and crossed the cylinder at 250ft AGL. since he didn't have to land at the airport to get all the points, he had no rules incentive to continue to the airport. Therefore, one could presume that in his determination he had sufficient height to land at the airport.

From what I see in the video, he was right - he could make it.

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 4:55:44 PM UTC-7, Dave Springford wrote:
Was it safe? Yes.



As Kirk points out at no time, once he was below 1000 ft, did he not have a landing option directly in front of him.



Was it fun? I doubt it, no one wants to cut it that close.

Is it good for US contests? It depends on the location, Uvalde, Hobbs, no. Somewhere in the middle of Kansas, could be.



But let's look at some other questions?



Was the pilot familiar with the area?

Did the pilot know he had landing options within the last 1-2 km





As has been pointed out on RAS before, many of the European teams do a good reconnaissance of the approach areas to the airport and determine what fields are landable on the approaches to the airport. This kind of preparation on the ground is really beneficial when you are on a marginal glide.



Another thing to consider is that the finish on that task was a 3 km cylinder and according to IGC rules, once you have crossed the finish line you don't have to land at the airport. According to his IGC file, he stopped his landing roll 2.5 km inside the cylinder and crossed the cylinder at 250ft AGL. since he didn't have to land at the airport to get all the points, he had no rules incentive to continue to the airport. Therefore, one could presume that in his determination he had sufficient height to land at the airport.



From what I see in the video, he was right - he could make it.

I agree with Dave on this. Its the JWGC, they might be young but they are good. He had plenty of options and seems to already know where he would be landing. Sure, no one wants a finish like that, but it shows it can be done with prior planning. World Teams scout out all the landable fields ahead of time, not only around the airport, but out on course.
It may surprize you, that some of our top pilots do the same scouting when they go to a US National. Some even arrive early and drive around the task area looking over the fields.

#711.

Hello Eric, and other non-contest pilots.

Don't be put off from contest flying by the Winter rantings and discussions of rules Minutia.

99% of the time Race rules are very simple. Start below a certain height, fly to all the turn points and finish above a the designated height.
Have fun, you will probably fly to destinations and distance you might not otherwise fly to.

Like another poster said it is basically a week of flying with a bunch other glider pilots who happen to be flying a similar course.

Brian

Andy:

You took all of the words out of my mouth

I dont think anyone wants to do that at their next contest sean.... Thats silly to say.