GAO Report: GA Security Threat

On 20 Nov 2003 11:43 PM, Holger Stephan posted the following:

neither. But the German people has been exposed to the horrors of war
not that long ago. It happened right where they live and that,
together with the incomprehensible guilt on the German nation has
turned the people into pacifists. This has everything to do with the
ugly face of war and little with the relationship between Germany and
the United States and their people.

The German people exposed their neighbors to the horrors of war. That
which occurred where they live, they brought upon themselves.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
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Stephan posted the following:

neither. But the German people has been exposed to the horrors of war
not that long ago. It happened right where they live and that,
together with the incomprehensible guilt on the German nation has
turned the people into pacifists. This has everything to do with the
ugly face of war and little with the relationship between Germany and
the United States and their people.



And uhhhhh lets not forget that EXCESSIVE pacifism....is WHAT allows these
crazy sobs like hitler to rise to power and make everyone else miserable in the
process.....

I dont hear many germans today bitchin today because we bombed the hell out the
civilians and hitlers minions in ww2, freeing them from a tyranical leadership
in the process.....not to mention similiar scenarios like japan etc etc....

And if peace at ANY cost is your mantra you better start polishing your posters
demanding that old Abe Lincoln go down as the most evil man in history for
starting that war of northern agression that ended up freeing the slaves.....
(not that the civil war actually had much to do with slavery in reality)

Blll

Thomas Borchert wrote:
Ian,


If you were born after about 1935, you don't
know as much as you think you know, having obtained your education in
your country's history following the imposition of laws restricting the
dissemination of information on the NSDAP.



Yeah, right... Time for a reality check, my man.

Yes, Thomas, it is.

The war ended in 1945. The "De-Nazification" laws were imposed before
all of the Wehrmacht had demobilized, and that started between the death
of Hitler and the surrender by Doenitz, three days later -- which is why
trying him for "extending the war" was a real crock.

Rich

My applogies. Still on one eye after cataract surgey and no relief in
sight (now that's a bummer G).

On my posting (for all on thread to read). We (the world) knows he had
them (he used them). No one knows if he destroyed. Let those on the
soap box prove otherwise.

Again, sorry for the wrong address.

Big John


On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:17:44 -0800, "Rich S."
wrote:

"Big John" wrote in message
.. .
Rich

Get off the soap box with that troll.

Big John...........

Better read the post again, pal - and this time pay special attention to the
attribution () marks. You are attributing Borchert's opinions to me.

NOT!

Rich S.

Holger Stephan wrote:

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 06:56:42 +0000, Robert Perkins wrote:


In Germany, the subject simply never comes up in polite conversation.
The topic of Nazi's is banned in Germany. The norm by now is expected to
be widespread ignorance of that part of their history.


There is one thing I should add. AFAIK the discussion of the Third Reich
was not an official part of the curriculum in West Germany for some time
after the war. I think it was somewhere in the 60s or maybe even 70s when
they added it. I guess it took some time for them to figure out how to
present it to the next generation.

You can also blame "De-Nazification." People were afraid to bring the
subject up, for fear of seeming to condone the NSDAP, or just preferring
to avoid investigation.

Let's also remember the minor detail that Germany launched a war, lost
that war, and was broken into two because of that loss. These are not
things that anyone would be too eager to talk much about.

In a way, the Berlin Airlift (hey, AIRPLANES!) cemented the relationship
between the Germans and the Western Powers. We proved our commitment to
support the BRD with the same kind of effort that had ended the
Thousand-Year Reich 990 years ahead of time.

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:06:26 +0000, Del Rawlins wrote:

On 20 Nov 2003 11:43 PM, Holger Stephan posted the following:

neither. But the German people has been exposed to the horrors of war
not that long ago. It happened right where they live and that, together
with the incomprehensible guilt on the German nation has turned the
people into pacifists. This has everything to do with the ugly face of
war and little with the relationship between Germany and the United
States and their people.

The German people exposed their neighbors to the horrors of war. That
which occurred where they live, they brought upon themselves.

Yes, and why do you point this out, Del? Did anybody question this? Do you
think being guilty makes suffering easier? Not to mention there were a lot
of people not guilty in Germany and also suffering. Finally, I was trying
to explain today's German position. WWII was bad, regardless of guilt, and
there are many who more than others learned from that and say war should
not be used where there are other means to resolve a conflict. And since
they did not see the necessity to go into Iraq they say it shouldn't have
been done.


- Holger

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:43:19 +0000, BllFs6 wrote:

And uhhhhh lets not forget that EXCESSIVE pacifism....is WHAT allows
these crazy sobs like hitler to rise to power and make everyone else
miserable in the process.....

You will find people agreeing with this assessment and still opposing the
war in Iraq. Because they do not feel the two cases are comparable.


I dont hear many germans today bitchin today because we bombed the hell
out the civilians and hitlers minions in ww2, freeing them from a
tyranical leadership in the process.....not to mention similiar
scenarios like japan etc etc....

And if peace at ANY cost is your mantra you better start polishing your
posters demanding that old Abe Lincoln go down as the most evil man in
history for starting that war of northern agression that ended up
freeing the slaves..... (not that the civil war actually had much to do
with slavery in reality)

Your comment addresses people who oppose war in any case. I believe they
are a minority in Germany and France. Remember, German soldiers are in
Afghanistan and while of course there is opposition against it, Germany
has aligned itself with the US in this conflict. Iraq is a different
matter in that many more people question the necessity of this war. Not
knowing what would have happened without the US marching in, one can't
really prove them wrong.



Blll

Do you also have real name?

- Holger Stephan, Portland, OR

"Big John" wrote in message
...
Rich

My applogies. Still on one eye after cataract surgey and no relief in
sight (now that's a bummer G).

On my posting (for all on thread to read). We (the world) knows he had
them (he used them). No one knows if he destroyed. Let those on the
soap box prove otherwise.

Again, sorry for the wrong address.

No problem, BJ.

Look on the bright side - you got to go trick or treat as a Pirate!

BTW, an Emeraude buddy of mine probably served with you at one time or
another. Lt. Col. "Russ" Russell, USAF (ret) of Ft. Walton Beach, FL. P-51's
in ETO & Korea, P-80's in Korea, C-140's in 'Nam.

Rich S.

Rich

Russell don't strike a bell with me?

Can't remember that name in 51's or 80's. Never flew the 140.

Is he retired at Tyndall (FWB) or did he serve there (or both)?. We
used to go there every year to fire and re qualify.

Had to restrict aircrew from eating oysters until after they had
qualified because they stuffed and got sick (runs) and couldn't fly.
(

Oysters were great though.

Have a nice day.

Big John


On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:11:45 -0800, "Rich S."
wrote:

"Big John" wrote in message
.. .
Rich

My applogies. Still on one eye after cataract surgey and no relief in
sight (now that's a bummer G).

On my posting (for all on thread to read). We (the world) knows he had
them (he used them). No one knows if he destroyed. Let those on the
soap box prove otherwise.

Again, sorry for the wrong address.

No problem, BJ.

Look on the bright side - you got to go trick or treat as a Pirate!

BTW, an Emeraude buddy of mine probably served with you at one time or
another. Lt. Col. "Russ" Russell, USAF (ret) of Ft. Walton Beach, FL. P-51's
in ETO & Korea, P-80's in Korea, C-140's in 'Nam.

Rich S.

On 21 Nov 2003 10:35 AM, Holger Stephan posted the following:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 18:06:26 +0000, Del Rawlins wrote:

On 20 Nov 2003 11:43 PM, Holger Stephan posted the following:

neither. But the German people has been exposed to the horrors of
war not that long ago. It happened right where they live and that,
together with the incomprehensible guilt on the German nation has
turned the people into pacifists. This has everything to do with the
ugly face of war and little with the relationship between Germany
and the United States and their people.

The German people exposed their neighbors to the horrors of war.
That which occurred where they live, they brought upon themselves.

Yes, and why do you point this out, Del? Did anybody question this? Do
you think being guilty makes suffering easier? Not to mention there
were a lot of people not guilty in Germany and also suffering. Finally,
I was trying to explain today's German position. WWII was bad,
regardless of guilt, and there are many who more than others learned
from that and say war should not be used where there are other means
to resolve a conflict. And since they did not see the necessity to go
into Iraq they say it shouldn't have been done.

What I meant to say, is that I don't find it particularly credible for
Germany to be critical of another nation's decision to go to war.

The whole point of this argument is that there *were* no other means
available to resolve the conflict in Iraq. Nothing short of force would
ever have brought Saddam down or motivated him to full disclosure on the
disposition of the WMD. The suggestion that the situation could have
been repaired otherwise is as ludicrous as the idea of negotiating for
peace with Hitler would have been in 1944.

As far as the continuing fighting in Iraq and elsewhere, those people
attacking our soldiers have hated our guts all along regardless of our
actions in Iraq. Far better that they are getting themselves killed at
the hands of our military rather than attacking civilians elsewhere, who
are not nearly as well equipped to deal with them.

Eventually order will be restored to Iraq and instead of being a
destabilizing force in the region, they will be if not an ally, then at
least a responsible, productive member of the international community.
What I find most annoying is that the democrats will probably be in
power once more by the time that happens, and will give themselves
credit for the successful conclusion of events brought about under the
current administration. And don't for a second think that they will
scale back this so called "patriot act" and TSA bull**** which we are
now subjected to.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins-
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/