Houston crash today

At 07:43 15 July 2014, Jim White wrote:
At 03:01 14 July 2014, wrote:
A JS-1C crashed today near Houston. Pilot died.

The report says Rokki Ford Roberts. Is this the guy I know as Shac
Roberts, who used to fly at Booker in UK?

Jim



Doubt it Jim- apparently the pilot was 67 years old, based on the news
reports.

Why do you think it's NOT safe to spin a Puchacz?

As of January 2004 Cindy B. had identified 23 fatal spins or over 1/8 of the fleet. A high proportion of these were fatal and several involved 2 CFIGs at the controls. A few searches will yield a couple more since then.

And do you think it IS safe to spin a K21?

To my knowledge K21s are permitted for spinning. Don't they have a tail ballast box for that purpose? I believe something over 1000 have been built. I don't think 125+ have plowed into the ground.

My speculation:
I would fly a JS1 again.
As will the pilot involved in the Truckee accident.
Jim

Given the current unknowns about the two JS1c fatalities its a bit of a stretch to say that.

Beyond that rudder pedals slicing through cables

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...01X72635&key=1

I can find no recommended action on the manufacturers website.

If a glider does not spin (like an unmodded ASK-21), it will not be
involved in a spin-related accident. Unfortunately pilots do spin.
Sometimes even if they don't want too. And most aircraft they fly after
their training on ASK-21's do too.

Sorry to continue OT, but Kevin, is there a study of Puchacz accidents (comparing to other types) which takes into account what percentage of Puchacz (vs. other types) flights are to perform spin recovery training? If you know the source I would be grateful. To not to clutter the thread, you may e-mail me
"piotr dot szafranski at gmail dot com"

On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 12:22:38 PM UTC+2, Kevin Christner wrote:
Why do you think it's NOT safe to spin a Puchacz?



As of January 2004 Cindy B. had identified 23 fatal spins or over 1/8 of the fleet. A high proportion of these were fatal and several involved 2 CFIGs at the controls. A few searches will yield a couple more since then.

I can't say I know of a study. You could have a point. But when very experienced pilots are being killed on a regular basis it begs the questions 1) is this a safe glider for spin training and 2) should we be doing such training at all.

I have not seen a report of such a high percentage of incidents in any other glider, such as an L-13, which had many multiples of the number of Puchaczs in service.

By heart by far the most of the accidents you mention were from inadvertent
spins. Cable breaks, turn to final, etc. Plus some while doing spin
training.

Having flown the Puch for spin training quite a lot, I can say it spins
quite well, and recovers quite well. The only drawbacks are the relatively
short warning time when inducing a spin from a slightly nose-up slipping
turn. ANd the delayed recovery when spinning with an aft CoG or improper
recovery techniques.

At 12:01 15 July 2014, Kevin Christner wrote:
I can't say I know of a study. You could have a point. But when very
experienced pilots are being killed on a regular basis it begs the
questions 1) is this a safe glider for spin training and 2) should we be
doing such training at all.

I have not seen a report of such a high percentage of incidents in any
other glider, such as an L-13, which had many multiples of the number of
Puchaczs in service.

The Puch may be recoverable 999 times out of 1000. Unless an airplane is recoverable 1000 times out of 1000 no one should be spinning it.

On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 6:48:26 AM UTC-4, Eric Munk wrote:
If a glider does not spin (like an unmodded ASK-21), it will not be

involved in a spin-related accident. Unfortunately pilots do spin.

Sometimes even if they don't want too. And most aircraft they fly after

their training on ASK-21's do too.

Any glider will do the part of the spin that will kill you, even if it does not enter a sustained spin.
Some are simply more tolerant to pilot error.
UH