In wave, in blue hole at cloud level, hole closes, in IMC, then what?

Let me preface my statements with some background. I have hundreds of hours of actual instrument time in military and light and medium civil aircraft. Almost all of it was hand flown - no autopilot. A lot in the monsoons of Vietnam. I also have some hours of actual instrument in my glider where I've been doing some experiments. I do not have any wave experience.

A "benign spiral" is only benign if everything remains in equilibrium. You can practice it all day in fairly smooth air. All that goes out the window when you enter turbulence.

In the military, I was a standardization and instrument instructor, similar to an FAA examiner. On every flight, we always played the "what if" game. What if this or that were to happen. As gilder pilots, everyone always plays the "what if I loss lift game" and plan for places to land. We should be considering any and all situations and failures. By the way, you don't need to be in the aircraft to do that. You can do almost as well by flying a chair and planning alternatives.

One of the things I always did with an instrument student was covering all gyros, airspeed, and altimeter, and then told them I wanted them to maintain control of the aircraft and descend 2,000. They still had a compass and outside air temp. Most gliders have a compass and a few have air temp.

With only those two instruments you can accomplish the task in actual instrument conditions. Think back to our training about compass lead and lag. Remember what happens if you are heading north or south and bank the aircraft?

Just in case you don't, if you are heading north and bank the aircraft, the compass will lag the turn. Actually, if you bank to the right, it will show a turn to the west. If heading south and you bank the aircraft, the compass will lead your turn. As soon as you bank to the right, the compass will swing to the right, even if you don't turn.

Now you know the secret - head SOUTH and try to keep the compass pointing south. As soon as you bank to the right, the compass will start a swing right. Correct to level and it will return to south, Bank left and it will swing left. It doesn't take much practice to get it down.

As for descending 2,000. all you need do is watch the outside air temp. The standard lapse rate is 2 degrees centigrade or 3 1/2 degrees Fahrenheit per 1,000 feet. A temp increase of 4C is approximately 2,000.

If we see clouds closing in on us, the normal first thought is to speed up to get away from the clouds. That's exactly the opposite of what you should be considering. First, at high altitudes, it would be easy to exceed VNE. Next, we don't want to over stress the aircraft in turbulence.

On most gliders, I would drop my gear to increase drag until I could get below flap speed. Then I would extend all the drag flaps you can. Then when slow, I'd extend spoilers or speed brakes. Your best friend in this case is not speed, but controlled rate of descent.

FYI, my plan for the instrument flying experiments I have been doing is to complete all three legs of the diamond badge in Georgia. That would be a first. All the IFR flying is on an instrument clearance with block altitudes. I haven't figured out yet how to maintain an assigned altitude in a glider!

Charlie

I think the idea of a "dirty" glider is a great idea, but will set one up for losing parts of the glider, like the flaps and ailerons, then the glider itself. Most gliders have airspeed limits on gear, flaps. I always had a very small level installed in the middle of the panel on my gliders (a level that can be installed on an AH). But then I have had much training with parcel panel IFR. Another poster mentioned ball (yaw string), airspeed, compass and altimeter can keep you in control, yes it can, but you had better have much practice and not have to scan from canopy to various parts of the panel to get all this information. Go rent a 172 and instructor, you will see how difficult it is, and a 172 will fly perfect without the pilot input.

I think a plan is the best, know the benign spiral characteristics of your glider in various configurations. Have a GPS coordinate for low ground, get some IFR training, get a vario with instant on AH, if you are below manuovering speed open the airbrakes. If you are not confident of your IFR skills try to freeze the controls instead of chasing instrument indications. Get a good flight instructor and practice your plan. Talk to other pilots about your plan and do not make any sudden control inputs unless you have a visual of the horizon. I saw someone posted that Bob got caught between two cloud layers. This has happened to me in both helicopters and airplanes, while you are not hard IFR you essentially are as there is no horizon. Same thing can happen in haze or low light.

No one mentioned spinning through the clouds. My personal view is that unless you know the sustained spin characteristics, you are likely to end up with the spin turning into a death spiral.

Good discussion though with lots of ideas to process.

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 7:08:36 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
So I'm flying in a blue hole in wave lift of 5 m/s, trimmed to 50 knots, in clear air with a cloud layer upwind and downwind, cloud top above and cloud base below. Suddenly I find myself in IMC. What are my options?

My glider is capable of benign spiral. I open the spoilers, (already trimmed to 50 knots) and let go of stick and rudder. Then I mentally rehearse my bail out procedure and expect to come out below the cloud (or possibly above). It seems like I should decisively and without hesitation initiate the spiral ASAP, while the glider is still relatively level and at cruising airspeed.

Suggestions?

I wonder if entering clouds during wave flight in the Sierras would pose a risk of entering icing conditions ? If so would the benign spiral still be recommended ? Flying slow and dirty ?

Thanks, not an experienced wave pilot, Brian

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 8:40:26 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
Well, this is based on the assumption that training is the answer for everything. It may be the answer for inexperience pilots. The two pilots who bailed out over Reno in the last decade where both extremely experienced ATP/ex military pilots with tons of IFR experience. Sometimes **** just happens. This falls under the 99.9% safe rule. The 0.1% sucks when it happens. Luckily it ended well.

Ramy

Great pilots, no matter how experienced, know their training never ends. Yes, **** happens and when it does, all that ultimately matters is whether the skills brought to the task are adequate.

I also have several thousand hours of actual instrument time and what that experience taught me was that I should never place myself in a position where there was any possibility of entering IMC unless the aircraft was fully equipped and I was current and competent in using that equipment under actual IMC. Otherwise, all that experience counts for nothing.

This thread is off the rails. OP posed a scenario involving IMC in smooth lift at low speed. Now guys are complaining that some of the tips given won't work at redline in rough air. Well that's true. It shouldn't really be a surprise now, should it?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 8:37:02 PM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
This thread is off the rails. OP posed a scenario involving IMC in smooth lift at low speed. Now guys are complaining that some of the tips given won't work at redline in rough air. Well that's true. It shouldn't really be a surprise now, should it?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

And the scenarios were folks are breaking gliders in wave, at least in the big Sierra wave are just not that scenario, so it's not particularly interesting to other folks here, who may be trying to get the topic on a rail relevant to actual problems experienced in real wave flying ... :-) Well stuff that has at least eaten two gliders in the Reno areas.

The Sierra wave scenario is really being closed in IMC near VNE in smooth air (if bombing along you are maybe 10,000'or so higher than the rotor). No turbulence necessary to have a very bad day.

True, but nothing wrong with expanding the discussion to the more realistic scenario of what happened recently (which no doubt inspired the OP to start this thread) while still staying on topic.
And yes, one never stop learning and training, my comment was towards the common remark to take a flight with an instructor, as if instructors always have more experience. Many instructors have more experience in takeoff and landings, but not in soaring, XC, wave and extreem weather.

Ramy

Dear Ramy, I too thought that since many instructors do not own their own glider their experience might be limited to take off landing and basic pattern work. Well, that is not true. Not all instructors are created equally. I am licensed to fly everything except hot air balloons and blimps, I have always been able to find an instructor to teach me something new. When I first started to fly the Minden area I took a five hour session with Carl Herold (I do not remember if he was a licensed instructor, but that was not important). Want to learn about ridge flying book a flight with Tom Knauff, at least 13 years ago you could. I took my commercial helicopter check ride with Boeing's chief test pilot. If you want to learn you can ALWAYS find someone better and more experienced than you. One post commented that instruction was for inexperienced (I might be paraphrasing or worse mis-paraphrasing) but I respectfully disagree. I have 7,500 hours in everything from open cockpit biplanes to WWII fighters, gliders, jets. I continually train in whatever I fly. Yes, a few times I did not learn as much as I wanted, but that did not make me stop seeking out the more experienced. I took a very expensive mountain flying class in helicopters and ended up teaching the instructors much, so I got them to comp me a day in the water dunk tank.

To keep expanding the thread there are many more items to think about. What is the terrain like? Lots of ways this can play out depending upon the sounding but there is no way to determine the thickness of the cloud layer. Might set up a perfectly good, stable, and safe descent only to fly it right into the ground. The spiral might allow drifting back into the downward side of the wave and the descent rate will go way up; be prepared for strange instrument readings. The pilot won't know how they will react to unusual and frightening operations. Most people don't fly much wave and make a trip to grab a diamond and tend to go since they just have this weekend of camp to make it.

In general, the OP scenario can be avoided by checking the soundings for the predicted wx during the flight. I know, the forecast can be wrong but taking a look and preparing for the potential can't hurt either. If the trend is the DP and temp getting closer as the day goes on the chance of getting closed in go up. The scenario an be avoided by seeing what the local pilots might do as local knowledge is very valuable. If the wx looks iffy, stay on the ground or change the flight plan. No flight ever has to be made.

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 12:14:19 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
True, but nothing wrong with expanding the discussion

I'm not objecting to that. I'm objecting to people taking answers to specific questions out of the original context and complaining that the answers are no longer correct.

-Evan