Chukar's own account

I guess my LS6 isn't a modern glider - it will only depart in landing
configuration, and then after less than a turn is in a spiral dive.

In Chukar's situation - IMC, no useful horizon - both theoretically and in
fact, spiral dive is the killer, alright, pretty much regardless of the glider
one flies. Only a few 'knowledgeably lucky' pilots who retain their wits (e.g.
Kempton Izuno, Bruce Carmichael) won't be needing their parachute Real Soon
Now. Under those conditions, assuming one is in a spiral dive is probably
correct, insofar as trying to initiate 'blind recovery' is concerned...I know
of few gliders that will remain in a spin stably in the absence of continuing
in-spin control (though the 2-32 comes to mind; there may be others but,
arguably, hosing up a stabilized spin recovery in IMC is less likely to
overstress the glider than delaying/hosing up a spiral dive recovery.)

Kinda-sorta related, it's been noted/argued in other threads that fatalities
ensuing from pattern-height departures from controlled flight may in fact be
due to spiral diving into the ground as distinct from spinning into the
ground. My take is - no less so than VFR into IMC - departure from controlled
flight in the landing pattern is Seriously Bad News *regardless* of how long
the initially-dropping wing is stalled. ("Lets see," thinks Joe switched-on
[well except for that inadvertent departure, I mean ] Glider Pilot, "Should
I initiate a stall recovery, or should I wait 'just long enough for this thing
to go spiral on me' and initiate a spiral dive recovery?")

Kids, be safe out there!

Bob W.

Glad to see that Bob survived, in spite of a lot of factors and circumstances that conspired and accumulated into a very dangerous situation.

As far as spin training, I remember my father (a pilot since 1939 until 1986) grumpily complaining that, once the FAA removed spin training from the pilot training syllabus that it was like saying to a bunch of new naval cadets, "We're not going to teach you how to swim. We are going to teach you how to not fall off the boat."

Since then I have heard that from a number of other sources, including the beloved and eloquent commentator on soaring, the late Gren Siebels. It is still true. I just wish that spin training, and not just recognition/avoidance was more widely available. Personally, I LIKE spins. They are exciting and demonstrate a high descent rate without unduly stressing the airframe. Just make sure you have about twice the altitude you think you need for the recovery.

I watch civilian airshow performers regularly spin, both upright and inverted and it is just amazing to watch. Done correctly, it is just another tool in the box. Upset training, as it is referred to, is a great thing. Let's face it, crap happens, and as a previous post noted, it is because we let it happen. Knowing how to get out of it is a desirable skill.

As far as complaining that the British actually teach cloud flying, so what? If they weren't willing and able to fly in the "fifty shades of grey," they wouldn't get much airtime at all in that soggy, green country. As a friend and mentor (a WW II fighter pilot) once told me, "The Brits are the best pilots in the world. Nobody else can fly in this crap and enjoy it."

Probably worth noting some aircraft are placarded "Spins Prohibited" for good reason. During certification spins are approach gingerly, often with a spin chute that can be deployed to recover from the spin if normal spin recovery doesn't work. Some aircraft will exhibit raising of the nose and go into a flat spin several turns after spin entry. Some aircraft will become stable in a flat spin and resist efforts to break the spin and recover.

During my PPL training in my Mooney, I accidentally entered a spin, flipping over the top and pointing straight down. Scared the crud out of me. I quietly asked my instructor if he wouldn't mind taking the plane and saving our lives. He did that. But it took about 3 turns and at least red line pulling out of the dive. He opined afterwards that the nose looked to be rising during the spin - - I'm not sure, I was in the fetal position trying not to get in the way of the rudder pedals.

I told him I was pretty much traumatized and wanted some spin training before flying my Mooney again. He asked me if I wanted to be an instructor. I said I don't think so and he said, okay, then we can't do spin training. I changed my mind about being an instructor and we rented a C152 and went spinning. When you spin with some assurance that you might survive, it's unnerving at first but gets to be fun in short order.

I enjoyed spinning my Starduster biplane and Aeronca Champ - both rated for spins. Wish my current Husky or ASH26E was, but unfortunately neither is and I'm not brave enough to be a test pilot.

Counting on intentionally spinning a "not certified for spinning" aircraft to exit IMC is not a good plan. As some have suggested, benign spiral may work in a ship that will do so in benign conditions - inside convective or wave rotor is anything but benign, so I wouldn't count on that either. Getting some instrument training and a gyro is the best approach IMO.

GPS, even Garmin's "panel page", which normally works fine for gyro back up in power planes, would be a poor choice for primary "simulated" gyro info in a glider flying in the kind of wave conditions we get at Minden.

GPS "panel page" wings level/turn, course and speed info is all based on ground track, and in high winds track can be back asswards or sideways from the direction the glider is pointing. I have an instrument rating, so have at least some clue, but think being blown sideways or backwards would present a GPS display that would be all but unflyable in turbulence, and in smooth air, if flyable at all, would be a high workload for sure.

Flying IMC with no gyros is a great equalizer, instrument trained or no, there's a strong risk you'll get to use your parachute or worse.

On Sunday, April 26, 2015 at 1:34:53 AM UTC-5, bumper wrote:


GPS, even Garmin's "panel page", which normally works fine for gyro back up in power planes, would be a poor choice for primary "simulated" gyro info in a glider flying in the kind of wave conditions we get at Minden.

GPS "panel page" wings level/turn, course and speed info is all based on ground track, and in high winds track can be back asswards or sideways from the direction the glider is pointing. I have an instrument rating, so have at least some clue, but think being blown sideways or backwards would present a GPS display that would be all but unflyable in turbulence, and in smooth air, if flyable at all, would be a high workload for sure.


Something of that nature was contributing to what was going on during my brief story about flying by compass, in my first post to the thread "Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters". It wasn't wave, but it was a much slower-flying aircraft than we're generally discussing in this forum, so I became very familiar with the uselessness of a simple GPS-driven "heading" display when windspeed is in the same ballpark as airspeed.

S

The other day flying near cloud base in rotor conditions I decided to
try an experiment; I looked at a bright spot off my left wingtip,
closed my eyes tightly, and began a left turn intending to roll out on a
heading 90 deg to my left. It was not hard at all! I was very careful
not to apply any pitch controls. So I tried it again, and was again
successful.

Does that mean I could do a blind 180 out of a cloud without basic blind
flying instruments? I wouldn't count on it... In fact, I doubt it
seriously. It's a whole lot different when you choose the experiment
rather than having it thrust upon you.

On 4/26/2015 12:34 AM, bumper wrote:
Probably worth noting some aircraft are placarded "Spins Prohibited" for good reason. During certification spins are approach gingerly, often with a spin chute that can be deployed to recover from the spin if normal spin recovery doesn't work. Some aircraft will exhibit raising of the nose and go into a flat spin several turns after spin entry. Some aircraft will become stable in a flat spin and resist efforts to break the spin and recover.

During my PPL training in my Mooney, I accidentally entered a spin, flipping over the top and pointing straight down. Scared the crud out of me. I quietly asked my instructor if he wouldn't mind taking the plane and saving our lives. He did that. But it took about 3 turns and at least red line pulling out of the dive. He opined afterwards that the nose looked to be rising during the spin - - I'm not sure, I was in the fetal position trying not to get in the way of the rudder pedals.

I told him I was pretty much traumatized and wanted some spin training before flying my Mooney again. He asked me if I wanted to be an instructor. I said I don't think so and he said, okay, then we can't do spin training. I changed my mind about being an instructor and we rented a C152 and went spinning. When you spin with some assurance that you might survive, it's unnerving at first but gets to be fun in short order.

I enjoyed spinning my Starduster biplane and Aeronca Champ - both rated for spins. Wish my current Husky or ASH26E was, but unfortunately neither is and I'm not brave enough to be a test pilot.

Counting on intentionally spinning a "not certified for spinning" aircraft to exit IMC is not a good plan. As some have suggested, benign spiral may work in a ship that will do so in benign conditions - inside convective or wave rotor is anything but benign, so I wouldn't count on that either. Getting some instrument training and a gyro is the best approach IMO.

GPS, even Garmin's "panel page", which normally works fine for gyro back up in power planes, would be a poor choice for primary "simulated" gyro info in a glider flying in the kind of wave conditions we get at Minden.

GPS "panel page" wings level/turn, course and speed info is all based on ground track, and in high winds track can be back asswards or sideways from the direction the glider is pointing. I have an instrument rating, so have at least some clue, but think being blown sideways or backwards would present a GPS display that would be all but unflyable in turbulence, and in smooth air, if flyable at all, would be a high workload for sure.

Flying IMC with no gyros is a great equalizer, instrument trained or no, there's a strong risk you'll get to use your parachute or worse.


--
Dan Marotta

I can tell you from experience from my inadvertent IMC, that about 90 seconds in the cloud you cannot tell what the glider is doing, and if I had responded to what I felt I would have tucked in tight and ripped the wings off.

I had practiced the benign spiral (full spoilers, hands and feet off) in my 1-26 and knew if would work from different entry speeds, different banks, ....

I watched the airspeed and the moving map.

At 90 seconds everything in my body told me I had just gone over the top, but the airspeed and the map said otherwise.

Every glider is different and you must practice in your glider and know what it will do or not do.
Some benign spiral well, some spin well, some spin a few spins than go into a spiral dive.

Kevin

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 8:52:42 AM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
This came from the SoarNV mailing list:

-----

On Easter Sunday, Bob Spielman, known as Chukar, was caught in clouds on a very lively wave day and had to bail out of his wingless glider. He visited us today. He is in good spirits and flying once again. He has his 1-26 and his Sparrow Hawk to keep him in the sky.

This is his first person account of what happened, reprinted here with his permission.

Oh, and we now call him Lucky Chukar.

Here is his account:



to my friends
i was going to fly my biggest flight in my ASW 27 today, aiming for 12 hours. i took off at minden at 7:30
and went north to Stead and turned back for clouds ad flew south to Mammoth and then went north almost to Susanville.
it was slow and as i was passing over Reno i went between 2 clouds which filled in suddenly. I should have had a neat attitude indicater like Gordo has and i tried to fly my Garmin but it was so rough that things went to hell in a hurry.
I was IFR at 14000' and i felt a stall and then the airspeed increased fast thru 160k and i heard 2 pops and the canopy broke
i shortly came out the bottom of the clouds in a spin at maybe 9-10000' and tried to break the spin but it didn't work and i looked and saw the left wing wasn't there so i knew that wouldn't work.
I unlocked the emerg canopy release, open my harness and went over the side. i saw stuff flying thru the air (2 nanos,handheld radio. lunch etc) and couln't find my ripcord and thought it was gone but looked lower and found it and pulled it and it wasn't a very long ride down and i saw the glider fuselage going down below me.
i thought i was going to land on the CIRCUS CIRCUS roof but missed it an then i landed on the st mary hospital
roof but hoped my chute would snag the light pole. i hit the light and the chute snagged it and i ended up 10'
in the air. a reno cop pushed up on my feet so i could release my chute and slide down the pole.
HOW LUCKY I WAS.

I didn't go to the hospital but my son and daughter in law doctor told me i had to and they found a broken collar bone
and my right lung was collapsed so they had that fixed in an hour by 2 doctors who are in our air guard hospital.

i lost my phone so no service.

LUCKY CHUKAR
that ASW 27 was a beautiful glider.

Without spending a lot of time reviewing threads, did anyone see anything that told how fast Chukar was going when he went into IMC?
Was this "sink into cloud", or full speed ahead, It'll get better?

UH

At 14:23 27 April 2015, wrote:
Without spending a lot of time reviewing threads, did anyone see anything
hat told how fast Chukar was going when he went into IMC?
Was this "sink into cloud", or full speed ahead, It'll get better?