Slider on a ram air parachute

It appears you misread what my rigger said. He said maximum deployment
speed *WITHOUT* a slider is 65 kts. I have a slider and I believe my
max opening speed is 150 kts. I have jumped with a similar chute and am
familiar with its flight characteristics which are, believe me, MUCH
better than a round chute with which I've only parasailed during AF
flight training. Given the generally high winds where I fly and the
rugged terrain, I'll take the higher forward speed and much higher
maneuvering abilities of my ram air chute to any round or conical canopy.

On 6/22/2015 11:22 AM, Nick wrote:
On Monday, 22 June 2015 17:59:25 UTC+1, Dan Marotta wrote:
Recently somebody made a comment about my emergency ram air
parachute and whether or not it has a slider to to slow deployment.
I checked with my rigger and jump instructor and here's what he
said:



Your parachute has a slider. The maximum airspeed for slider-off deployments is 65 mph. In an aircraft emergency, you will almost always be deploying at a higher speed than that, so the slider is absolutely necessary. Deploying slider-off at high speed can damage the gear and maybe the jumper. Your parachute is designed to open as fast as possible without causing damage. It should take about 3 seconds/300 feet for it to open in most situations. Exactly the same as a round parachute of roughly equivalent area.



--

Dan Marotta
I'd agree with that. That is why an emergency chute makes more sense.

http://www.parachuteshop.com/Softie%...The_Preserve_1

Specifications:
Nominal Diameter - 24 feet
Maximum Open Diameter- 14 feet
Weight - 7 Pounds
Maximum Pilot Weight- 220 Pounds
Maximum Deployment Speed- 172 MPH
Rate of Descent for 200 Pounds - 16 FPS
Steerable

Notice the higher deployment speed.

The other one to watch is pulling at high altitude. It's a TAS limit.

--
Dan Marotta

I've seen the result of using a round canopy in the high desert. I
opted for the controllability of a ram air canopy. It is an emergency
chute with similar opening characteristics to a round canopy. If you're
interested, here's a link to the manual:
http://www.rigginginnovations.com/fi...AviatorMnl.pdf

On 6/22/2015 2:13 PM, Nick wrote:
On Monday, 22 June 2015 19:31:26 UTC+1, wrote:
Sliders are only removed from ramair parachutes for fixed object jumping or dopey stunts. Any 'already in the air' deployments will be likely be at a speed that causes damage either to equipment or jumper. Jumper first, the gear can take more then most people. You really don't want to use a nonslider equipped ramair parachute over 50 mph or so.
Exactly. However, do you want to use a ram air parachute when it deploys slower than an emergency chute?

--
Dan Marotta

I took the training and have a P-124. It's rigged so that it cannot be
stalled. Otherwise it's pretty much the same as other ram air chutes.
You should take some training jumps with a ram air chute before doing it
for the first time alone. Since you have prior experience with jumping,
it should be a breeze rather being scared sh!tless as I was. Still, I
made 7 jumps and enjoyed each one after letting go of the airplane! The
sport rigs had more capability to stall the canopy, but that's the only
difference that I know of.

On 6/22/2015 11:44 PM, Paul B wrote:
On Tuesday, 23 June 2015 07:57:03 UTC+10, wrote:
Ramair reserves with sliders open faster and more reliably then rounds. The only advantage to rounds is price and the difference isn't that great if you are buying new.

I am about to get a new chute and I am very interested in the RamAir system, mainly because I am at the top of allowable weight range and not getting any younger, so a potentially lower vertical velocity is appealing. Whilst I have some skydiving experience, this was under round canopies and some forty years ago. I had a look at the ram Air chute at the parachuteshop.com and found some conflicting advise.

"The P-124 will deliver its max payload at an unbelievably slow 12.1 feet/second, allowing standup landings and requiring no jumper control input at the landing phase."

also

"the P-124 requires no control input from the jumper in the landing phase. Consequently there is no additional training required of aircrew personnel over and above what they receive on current systems."

but it also says this

"Because of the advanced characteristics of these canopy designs, the Sport Aviator model may only be used by individuals who either have ram-air jumping experience such as skydiving, or have received special training in the use and performance of these canopies."

So I am somewhat confused. Can anyone shed some light on this please.

Thanks

Paul

--
Dan Marotta

Paul, et al:
Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
Jim

On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 07:12:02 UTC+10, JS wrote:
Paul, et al:
Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
Jim

Thank you all for your informative replies. I will follow up all the posts and links, but it does seem to me that a ramair is the way to go. Not that I have Dan M's problems, I fly over a flat land farming country (in Australia) and never that much wind. Not that I would not trade the scenery though.. It would be my turn to be scared sh!tless .

Cheers

Paul

And what is the result of using a round canopy in the high desert. Alan Silver had a good article on whether to use a ram air or round E chute. In the end the round has less potential for problems which could make a bad day even worse.


On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 9:08:12 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
I've seen the result of using a round canopy in the high desert.* I
opted for the controllability of a ram air canopy.* It is an
emergency chute with similar opening characteristics to a round
canopy.* If you're interested, here's a link to the manual:* http://www.rigginginnovations.com/fi...AviatorMnl.pdf




On 6/22/2015 2:13 PM, Nick wrote:



On Monday, 22 June 2015 19:31:26 UTC+1, wrote:


Sliders are only removed from ramair parachutes for fixed object jumping or dopey stunts. Any 'already in the air' deployments will be likely be at a speed that causes damage either to equipment or jumper. Jumper first, the gear can take more then most people. You really don't want to use a nonslider equipped ramair parachute over 50 mph or so.


Exactly. However, do you want to use a ram air parachute when it deploys slower than an emergency chute?





--

Dan Marotta

chuckle

I made a long reply to Jonathan St. Cloud regarding his questions. I had
meant to post to the newsgroup so, Jonathan, if you see this, please
repost it to the newsgroup. I don't have a copy...

Dan

On 6/23/2015 5:36 PM, Paul B wrote:
On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 07:12:02 UTC+10, JS wrote:
Paul, et al:
Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
Jim
Thank you all for your informative replies. I will follow up all the posts and links, but it does seem to me that a ramair is the way to go. Not that I have Dan M's problems, I fly over a flat land farming country (in Australia) and never that much wind. Not that I would not trade the scenery though. It would be my turn to be scared sh!tless .

Cheers

Paul

--
Dan Marotta

In the high desert where I live there are almost always high winds (20+ kts), mix that with the low forward speed, high descent rate, and slow maneuvering capability of a round canopy (a four line cut would improve maneuverability and forward speed, but do you know how to do that? and would you?) AND the rugged terrain, and you have a mix to get beat up in the best case on landing and much worse if it's not your day.

The ram air chute flies a rectangular pattern just like a glider and, as an experienced glider pilot, I'm completely comfortable that I can put it down very near to where I choose due to the higher forward speed, lower descent speed, and higher maneuverability of the square canopy. That, plus I took the initiative to receive proper training from a licensed jump instructor and I made a number of jumps to prove to myself that I can do it.

In the past I was always a bit nervous at the possibility that I may someday have to jump. Not so any more.

Regard Alan's article - since I haven't seen it, I'll only comment on your take from it: I agree that the round is more benign in low wind conditions and decent terrain but, for the *trained* individual, I'll take the ram air chute any day. Yes, if you don't know what you're doing, you can easily get into trouble with a ram air canopy. That's why the manufacturer, and my rigger were very insistent that I take ground training and make several training jumps before wearing my emergency ram air equipment.
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:54:22 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
chuckle



I made a long reply to Jonathan St. Cloud regarding his questions.*
I had meant to post to the newsgroup so, Jonathan, if you see this,
please repost it to the newsgroup.* I don't have a copy...



Dan




On 6/23/2015 5:36 PM, Paul B wrote:



On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 07:12:02 UTC+10, JS wrote:


Paul, et al:
Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
Jim


Thank you all for your informative replies. I will follow up all the posts and links, but it does seem to me that a ramair is the way to go. Not that I have Dan M's problems, I fly over a flat land farming country (in Australia) and never that much wind. Not that I would not trade the scenery though. It would be my turn to be scared sh!tless .

Cheers

Paul





--

Dan Marotta

On Thursday, 25 June 2015 06:25:23 UTC+10, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
In the high desert where I live there are almost always high winds (20+ kts), mix that with the low forward speed, high descent rate, and slow maneuvering capability of a round canopy (a four line cut would improve maneuverability and forward speed, but do you know how to do that? and would you?) AND the rugged terrain, and you have a mix to get beat up in the best case on landing and much worse if it's not your day.

The ram air chute flies a rectangular pattern just like a glider and, as an experienced glider pilot, I'm completely comfortable that I can put it down very near to where I choose due to the higher forward speed, lower descent speed, and higher maneuverability of the square canopy. That, plus I took the initiative to receive proper training from a licensed jump instructor and I made a number of jumps to prove to myself that I can do it.

In the past I was always a bit nervous at the possibility that I may someday have to jump. Not so any more.

Regard Alan's article - since I haven't seen it, I'll only comment on your take from it: I agree that the round is more benign in low wind conditions and decent terrain but, for the *trained* individual, I'll take the ram air chute any day. Yes, if you don't know what you're doing, you can easily get into trouble with a ram air canopy. That's why the manufacturer, and my rigger were very insistent that I take ground training and make several training jumps before wearing my emergency ram air equipment.
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:54:22 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
chuckle



I made a long reply to Jonathan St. Cloud regarding his questions.*
I had meant to post to the newsgroup so, Jonathan, if you see this,
please repost it to the newsgroup.* I don't have a copy...



Dan




On 6/23/2015 5:36 PM, Paul B wrote:



On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 07:12:02 UTC+10, JS wrote:


Paul, et al:
Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
Jim


Thank you all for your informative replies. I will follow up all the posts and links, but it does seem to me that a ramair is the way to go. Not that I have Dan M's problems, I fly over a flat land farming country (in Australia) and never that much wind. Not that I would not trade the scenery though. It would be my turn to be scared sh!tless .

Cheers

Paul





--

Dan Marotta

One additional question. The round canopies are very forgiving, when it comes to body position when the ripcord is pulled. Are the square canopies similar, or is a more stable position, ie face down, not tumbling, required?

Cheers

Paul

I don't know why there would be a difference, but I would speculate that
the ram air canopy has a slight advantage since it leaves the container
tightly packed in a deployment bag. The canopy stays pretty much in the
bag until at or near full line extension and, on my rig, the drogue
pulls off the bag and both the drogue and bag are lost. At least that's
what I recall. Maybe some youtube videos could share some light on
that. My rigger also strongly advised that I *NOT* try to catch the
drogue and bag lest I get them caught in the chute. He also advised I
throw away the rip cord immediately after pulling it. Replacements are
less expensive than smacking the ground at high speed...

As to position; leaving the jump plane I was taught to assume a stable
arch before deployment. Hopefully I'll do just that if I have to leave
my glider. Of course if I'm hit in the traffic pattern, it's canopy
off, belts open, jump, pull. No delays...

Hope that helps.

On 6/24/2015 11:39 PM, Paul B wrote:
On Thursday, 25 June 2015 06:25:23 UTC+10, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
In the high desert where I live there are almost always high winds (20+ kts), mix that with the low forward speed, high descent rate, and slow maneuvering capability of a round canopy (a four line cut would improve maneuverability and forward speed, but do you know how to do that? and would you?) AND the rugged terrain, and you have a mix to get beat up in the best case on landing and much worse if it's not your day.

The ram air chute flies a rectangular pattern just like a glider and, as an experienced glider pilot, I'm completely comfortable that I can put it down very near to where I choose due to the higher forward speed, lower descent speed, and higher maneuverability of the square canopy. That, plus I took the initiative to receive proper training from a licensed jump instructor and I made a number of jumps to prove to myself that I can do it.

In the past I was always a bit nervous at the possibility that I may someday have to jump. Not so any more.

Regard Alan's article - since I haven't seen it, I'll only comment on your take from it: I agree that the round is more benign in low wind conditions and decent terrain but, for the *trained* individual, I'll take the ram air chute any day. Yes, if you don't know what you're doing, you can easily get into trouble with a ram air canopy. That's why the manufacturer, and my rigger were very insistent that I take ground training and make several training jumps before wearing my emergency ram air equipment.
On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 10:54:22 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
chuckle



I made a long reply to Jonathan St. Cloud regarding his questions.
I had meant to post to the newsgroup so, Jonathan, if you see this,
please repost it to the newsgroup. I don't have a copy...



Dan




On 6/23/2015 5:36 PM, Paul B wrote:



On Wednesday, 24 June 2015 07:12:02 UTC+10, JS wrote:


Paul, et al:
Would have thought everyone would want to get trained for and do a sport jump.
I made two "static line equivalent" square sport jumps before buying a PD235 from Silver Parachute. Great fun, added to 20 previous round chute jumps and 100+ hours of paraglider, which is a high aspect ratio ram air chute.
It's easy to land a square chute where you want to and on two feet. It's also better in high winds than the old round things.
A square chute is not better if you release the toggles then do nothing, ie: pass out. With the toggles released a square chute has a hands-off forward speed of about 25MPH.
Jim


Thank you all for your informative replies. I will follow up all the posts and links, but it does seem to me that a ramair is the way to go. Not that I have Dan M's problems, I fly over a flat land farming country (in Australia) and never that much wind. Not that I would not trade the scenery though. It would be my turn to be scared sh!tless .

Cheers

Paul





--

Dan Marotta
One additional question. The round canopies are very forgiving, when it comes to body position when the ripcord is pulled. Are the square canopies similar, or is a more stable position, ie face down, not tumbling, required?

Cheers

Paul

--
Dan Marotta