Can't buy them all, choosing between ASW19 vs LS1 vs PIK20

If you can get a good buy on a PIK, they are not a bad plane. Easy to rig, tough, great flying! I bought a B model with the big flaps and love it. It is easy to fly and land and predictable in every way. My second flight in the ship yielded a 535k dry. If the trailer is in good shape, they work just fine. Not as nice as a Cobra or Komet, but sound transportation and storage. It will come down to the plane and the instruments included. You really can't go wrong with the Pik or the 19.


On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 8:51:58 AM UTC-6, PAGA wrote:
Hi all,

After a long break from gliders, last year I moved close to an airfield and resumed flying at the local soaring club on Blanik metal 2-seaters. While this is always a lot of fun I am tempted to finally get my own one-seater and start practice longer flights, with slightly better performance than the L23, and also maybe take it on the road to fly elsewhere in the US.

Most of my previous one-seater experience was on Grob 102, both in Europe and in the US : I was looking for a used one and missed a local sale by a few weeks/days. While searching other available used ships not too far from me, within the set performances and the price range I want to commit to, I have narrowed it down to a PIK20, or a LS-1 or an ASW19, in similar conditions and within my parameters (L/D, sink rate, instruments, size, weight, type, etc... i.e. similar to the Grob) and price range (+/- a few $K).

This is the first time I am considering owning my own ship, and I am sure this forum has seen this kind of question a million times (apologies for the duplicate thread) I searched some of these threads but I need to ask a more experience crowd about my specific choice : how to decide between these 3 fine sailplanes, what should I do/ask/check with the sellers in order avoid obvious mistakes and make it easier to decide?

My main concerns are very "grounded" : how to deal with maintenance (when the manufacturer is no longer around for example), and how hard/easy is it to assemble/store them back in the trailer. Of course I am sure these ships handle differently when in the air but I am not too concerned about learning how to deal with each flying specifics/idiosyncrasy, at this point I feel most of my challenges are actually going to be when on land :-)

Thank you all for your time.

Thank you all so far for all these interesting feedback and tips. I am going to try see all 3 ships before deciding, I may come back here with more questions. And of course I will try to keep you posted once things get moving. Also thank you for the warm welcome back to the soaring community, gliders really attracts a special kind of people.

Have a nice week all - thanks again

I flew a 19 for several years and loved it. No bad habits, nice handling and decent performance. I liked it with water. As stated before, key is a good trailer for assembly/disassembly. Mine came with a Komet. Also consider getting a version with a tilt up panel modification as the stock version had a fixed panel. I'd also say the wings were stiffer than a Peg, which I also flew several as part of a club...tad better energy retention in a pull up.

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 7:51:58 AM UTC-7, PAGA wrote:
Hi all,

After a long break from gliders, last year I moved close to an airfield and resumed flying at the local soaring club on Blanik metal 2-seaters. While this is always a lot of fun I am tempted to finally get my own one-seater and start practice longer flights, with slightly better performance than the L23, and also maybe take it on the road to fly elsewhere in the US.

Most of my previous one-seater experience was on Grob 102, both in Europe and in the US : I was looking for a used one and missed a local sale by a few weeks/days. While searching other available used ships not too far from me, within the set performances and the price range I want to commit to, I have narrowed it down to a PIK20, or a LS-1 or an ASW19, in similar conditions and within my parameters (L/D, sink rate, instruments, size, weight, type, etc... i.e. similar to the Grob) and price range (+/- a few $K).

This is the first time I am considering owning my own ship, and I am sure this forum has seen this kind of question a million times (apologies for the duplicate thread) I searched some of these threads but I need to ask a more experience crowd about my specific choice : how to decide between these 3 fine sailplanes, what should I do/ask/check with the sellers in order avoid obvious mistakes and make it easier to decide?

My main concerns are very "grounded" : how to deal with maintenance (when the manufacturer is no longer around for example), and how hard/easy is it to assemble/store them back in the trailer. Of course I am sure these ships handle differently when in the air but I am not too concerned about learning how to deal with each flying specifics/idiosyncrasy, at this point I feel most of my challenges are actually going to be when on land :-)

Thank you all for your time.

I have owned both Schleicher and DGs (ASW19, ASH26E and DG400). I have found Schleicher to be much easier to deal with than DG, who virtually dares you to be a customer. True, you won't have to pay the DG "tax" unless you actually need spare parts, but then you will have to ante up 495 Euro to be allowed the "privilege" of buying them. AND you will have to pay 300 Euro per year thereafter. Do the math: if you own the glider for 10 years that adds up to over 3,000 Euros ($3,300)! And this does not include the price of the parts! I regard this policy as the MOST ill conceived marketing blunder I have ever encountered. And this isn't even the most grievous complaint I have with DG management. I encountered unprecedented resistance to corrected a very significant error in the DG400's POH. DG eventually corrected it, but not after first calling me, basically, an idiot.

All other things being equal (which they seldom are - condition of finish, equipment, trailer etc. usually vary quite a bit with used gliders) go for the ASW-19. It's fairly roomy, has a great one piece forward opening canopy, really nice handling, adequate air brakes and good performance. Assembly is easy with the two main pin system. All the control couplings are manual but they are quite easy to reach and visually check.

perjantai 16. lokakuuta 2015 17.51.58 UTC+3 PAGA kirjoitti:
Hi all,

After a long break from gliders, last year I moved close to an airfield and resumed flying at the local soaring club on Blanik metal 2-seaters. While this is always a lot of fun I am tempted to finally get my own one-seater and start practice longer flights, with slightly better performance than the L23, and also maybe take it on the road to fly elsewhere in the US.

Most of my previous one-seater experience was on Grob 102, both in Europe and in the US : I was looking for a used one and missed a local sale by a few weeks/days. While searching other available used ships not too far from me, within the set performances and the price range I want to commit to, I have narrowed it down to a PIK20, or a LS-1 or an ASW19, in similar conditions and within my parameters (L/D, sink rate, instruments, size, weight, type, etc... i.e. similar to the Grob) and price range (+/- a few $K).

This is the first time I am considering owning my own ship, and I am sure this forum has seen this kind of question a million times (apologies for the duplicate thread) I searched some of these threads but I need to ask a more experience crowd about my specific choice : how to decide between these 3 fine sailplanes, what should I do/ask/check with the sellers in order avoid obvious mistakes and make it easier to decide?

My main concerns are very "grounded" : how to deal with maintenance (when the manufacturer is no longer around for example), and how hard/easy is it to assemble/store them back in the trailer. Of course I am sure these ships handle differently when in the air but I am not too concerned about learning how to deal with each flying specifics/idiosyncrasy, at this point I feel most of my challenges are actually going to be when on land :-)

Thank you all for your time.

You should be able to buy decent PIK-20 for a lot less money than ASW19. Type certificate holder for PIK20 is Finnish aviation authority, BTW. It's well built and has outstanding price-to-performance ratio. Parts availability might be a problem (lot's of salvage parts are lying around, however). PIK-20A and B have only landing flaps and land unlike normal glider.

On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 3:37:40 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:

PIK-20A and B have only landing flaps and land unlike normal glider.

Or, I could turn this around and say the PIK 20A and B have only landing flaps and land like a glider should land. Not the crazy, screaming down the runway tail first touchdowns you get with spoilers only ships.

Said with tongue firmly in cheek, for all those who fly spoiler only sailplanes. :-)

Steve Leonard

So far I have seen the LS-1 and the ASW-19. Both are nice ships, the finish on the LS-1 is better because it was painted over, so it does not have this old gelcoat feel that the other ship shows. My current preference would be for the ASW-19 if I only considered size of the cockpit and ease to get parts, but I love that LS-1, it seems to have been very well taken care off by it previous owners.

Also I have heard lots of diverging opinions about PIK-20s, some negative about the fact that apparently Centrair is now providing parts for it, or was it wrong information? Is there some painful ADs coming up on those, or some issue with the maintenance, getting parts or what else is going on?

Again, many thanks to all the participants in this thread for your inputs.

On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 9:28:15 AM UTC-4, PAGA wrote:
So far I have seen the LS-1 and the ASW-19. Both are nice ships, the finish on the LS-1 is better because it was painted over, so it does not have this old gelcoat feel that the other ship shows. My current preference would be for the ASW-19 if I only considered size of the cockpit and ease to get parts, but I love that LS-1, it seems to have been very well taken care off by it previous owners.

Also I have heard lots of diverging opinions about PIK-20s, some negative about the fact that apparently Centrair is now providing parts for it, or was it wrong information? Is there some painful ADs coming up on those, or some issue with the maintenance, getting parts or what else is going on?

Again, many thanks to all the participants in this thread for your inputs..

I've owned a PIK-20B and a couple 19's. I enjoyed and LS-1F when I flew it in the WGC.
LS flew very well. Factory support is quite good and responsive, but expensive with the owner tax. Of the 3, the LS gliders are the hardest to reliably and safely hook up controls.
PIK is very durable and strong with very good( under appreciated) performance. If it is flaps only, it is more of an effort to learn to land well, but will land very short at low energy. There is almost no support and not a lots of current knowledge on maintenance and repair with respect to materials. Forget Centrair- they are useless.
'19 is easy to fly, performs very well. Parts and support are readily available.
It is easy to sell if you decide to move up. It would be my first choice.
Good luck
UH

ASW19 best bet, still supported and pleasant and easy to fly. PIK20 best
performance when clean and dry but performance deteriorates very badly with
rain or bugs on leading edge.

At 14:56 26 October 2015, wrote:
On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 9:28:15 AM UTC-4, PAGA wrote:
So far I have seen the LS-1 and the ASW-19. Both are nice ships, the
fin=
ish on the LS-1 is better because it was painted over, so it does not
have
=
this old gelcoat feel that the other ship shows. My current preference
wou=
ld be for the ASW-19 if I only considered size of the cockpit and ease to
g=
et parts, but I love that LS-1, it seems to have been very well taken
care
=
off by it previous owners.
=20
Also I have heard lots of diverging opinions about PIK-20s, some
negative=
about the fact that apparently Centrair is now providing parts for it,
or
=
was it wrong information? Is there some painful ADs coming up on those,
or
=
some issue with the maintenance, getting parts or what else is going on?
=
=20
=20
Again, many thanks to all the participants in this thread for your
inputs=
..

I've owned a PIK-20B and a couple 19's. I enjoyed and LS-1F when I flew
it
=
in the WGC.
LS flew very well. Factory support is quite good and responsive, but
expens=
ive with the owner tax. Of the 3, the LS gliders are the hardest to
reliabl=
y and safely hook up controls.
PIK is very durable and strong with very good( under appreciated)
performan=
ce. If it is flaps only, it is more of an effort to learn to land well,
but=
will land very short at low energy. There is almost no support and not
a
=
lots of current knowledge on maintenance and repair with respect to
materia=
ls. Forget Centrair- they are useless.
'19 is easy to fly, performs very well. Parts and support are readily
avail=
able.
It is easy to sell if you decide to move up. It would be my first choice.
Good luck
UH