Handicap Distance Tasks

BB,

Please excuse spelling errors as I type this reply out quickly on my cell phone between meetings. The subject of the TAT task makes my skin crawl.

Let me start by saying I think that you're a very smart guy and mean well. You also do great things for the sport of soaring! But when it comes to tasking philosophy, we stand far, far apart. Please don't take this too seriously...

Your question about "extra distance" shows me that you entirely miss the point of the Handicap Distance Task. I'm shocked and amazed when I read such questions and comments. It's as if you USRC guys are sometimes writing from an entirely different dimension. Somehow you find reasons to continue the anti racing task crusade (even though racing tasks are down to under 3% in the USA and only a few pesky pockets or resistance remain!). Even a newly proposed handicap racing task gets your attention (already struck down by the USRC!) and suffers from your instinct to look at ways to pervert it. This is incredibly irritating.

Extra distance? No! No, no, no, NO! For the love of all things special, NOOOOOOO! That is the whole purpose of the Handicap Distance Task (HDR). It's intended to be a real racing experience for the handicap gliding environment.

Uh oh. Did I just hear the muffled sounds of heads violently exploding in the distance? I said the word "racing" on a US glider forum, big mistake,................boom!

http://youtu.be/B_Lnz64vXB8

The HDR task calculates a simple set distance (around common assigned turn points) for each gliders handicap. It intentionally does not provide aloof freedoms for each pilot to further decide what they want to do when they reach the turn. This is because that freedom would completely kills the idea of "racing" and creates a new, non-racing sport entirely (see OLC, US tasking).

The whole point of the HDR task is simplicity and fair, even, SIMPLE racing between a range of different gliders. This is not intended to be an OLC or TAT task John. In fact, The HDR is an effort to get away from not racing (more heads exploding off in the American countryside distance....)

If your head is still intact, please try and stay with me here.

The HDR is (intentionally) NOT a timed task. The idea is for all competitors to get to the closest point in their "ring" as fast as possible and turn towards the next assigned point. No watches or countdown timers. No scoring formulas. No weather gambles (well, as few as possible). Fly the task as fast as you can. The shortest time wins the RACE. A Ventus 2cxm could race fairly against a LS1 with this task. How great is that. No, wait a minute, you want to add more variables.

Yes, lower performance gliders with larger diameter turn points may have more lateral range to work with. Depending on how it goes, I may define narrowed segments (pie shapes) to limit that lateral range for the low handicap gliders in Ionia (for example). Simple to do. An improvement I think. Better yet would be a series of one km turn points on the task leg radial. Also simple to code up.

Back to the pain of TATs - Turn area tasks are depressing tasks because they allow far too much choice in A) what side of the turn cylinder to guess, gamble, put your chips on (and that is a significant part of the results) and B) how far to go into various turn areas (this also significantly effects results). The average US "turn area" in our TAT tasks is 40 miles! That's 1257 square miles!

The (timed) TAT is, simply put, is not a race. Not even close. It's a timed, distance, weather gamble game in a loosely defined area. The TAT task allows pilots to choose between thousands of optional square miles to fly over and turn to the next area over. It is free form by design (lightly constrained) and fundamentally completely different for each competitor, for each segment of the day (early starters, late starters...). The weather variability is also enormous over these ranges.

Some call the TAT a test of skill. The truth is that there is usually significant luck involved in the results. The options and variables available to a pilot between A) widely different start times and B) three 20 mile radius (for example) turn areas are absolutely ENORMOUS. This huge variability results in low quality, almost subjective competition results, especially at the beginner levels.

The TAT is also WILDLY over called in the USA (65-70% of our current total task).

Here is the sniff test: If glider pilots on a TAT are able to reach both sides, and varying depths, of 3 turn cylinders (areas) THEN an ASSIGNED TASK would have worked out perfectly for this given content day! When you look at the IGC traces of most US tasks (over the past 5 years) you will see that that test fails the vast majority of the time! I would say 75% of hand. I'm happy to back that up but, better yet, go look for yourself.

Again, The TAT is a COMPROMISE TASK developed for dealing with less than perfect weather forecasts or wide handicap or skill range. It is intended to reduce land outs when weather is unpredictable and give competitors a chance to finish. It is not the ideal form of a competition because LUCK is a major, major element of its results. The area task allows gliders to (somehow, via formulas, rules, etc) "compete???" on an entirely different geography and at entirely different times. Does this sound like a race to you? It's a huge compromise at best. Watered down. Muted. Boring. Annoying. A weather gamble task. I propose that we should only be calling TATs when we must. It should not be our, by far, most common task.

I don't care who you are. I don't care if you are Mother F. Nature. Nobody can predict the weather well enough to consistently succeed at a TAT. The statistics of the task alone prove this. Weather, on the scale of cross country gliding, is just to random and dynamic. This is why non contest pilots like OLC. They have a hard time completing tasks they call for themselves and get frustrated. Why, weather is impossible to predict. OLC allows for this weather problem and "kinda" results in some measurable form of accomplishment (distance), albeit usually at a different location, different time of day and over an entirely different quadrant of a clubs flying area.. Golf clap to you....! You won!?

So to those who say they want a "weather test," give me a break. An assigned task is a far better weather test because decisions are exponentially more critical as you must get back to the same exact same points to complete each assigned leg. Weather decisions are force CONSOLIDATED on every leg of an assigned task. Just because two gliders are not fifty miles apart in the same "turn-area" does not mean that there are not weather implications. It's quite the opposite.

I stand amazingly opposed to the idea of extra distance being a good thing. It's THE WORST IDEA IN THE HISTORY OF SOARING. Awful.

Here is to the hope of the handicap distance task catching on, despite the constant opposition to simple, non-complex, pure racing tasks in the United States.

Sean Fidler

Now Sean, settle down. Yes, I understand the idea of the handicapped distance task, and I'm not against it. In fact, I wish we'd try far more things already in the rules -- last start time, OLC-type tasking or "distance day" achieved by 6 hour minimums, really long MATs with all turns assigned, worst day score adjustment, etc. etc.

So let's try it at some regionals and see if pilots like it.

There are two kinds of diametrically opposed feedback I hear about glider races. 1) "I want more eyeball to eyeball racing. It's getting boring out there so I'll stay home and fly OLC" 2) "I don't want to waste my gliding vacation on a bunch of short tasks, flying only 300 km on 750 km days. I'll stay home and fly OLC."

Handicapped distance task addresses 1, especially for pilots who find the strategic choice of where to turn in a turn area and how to use a clock to end the flight unpleasant. But it goes in the other direction on 2. Time-limited tasks are ideally suited to let each pilot get the most out of each day, without long retrieves. At the cost of less eyeball to eyeball racing feel.

Let's try both and see what pilots really want, facing the heartless sky, away from the comfort of their winter keyboards, and ponying up their precious weeks of vacation for the pleasure.

I'll be at Truckee this summer where they call the handicapped distance task with last start time. I'll be interested to try it.

John Cochrane

;-)

On Monday, February 8, 2016 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-5, smfidler wrote:

The (timed) TAT is, simply put, is not a race. Not even close. It's a timed, distance, weather gamble game in a loosely defined area. The TAT task allows pilots to choose between thousands of optional square miles to fly over and turn to the next area over. It is free form by design (lightly constrained) and fundamentally completely different for each competitor, for each segment of the day (early starters, late starters...). The weather variability is also enormous over these ranges.

You're right, Sean; there's enormous weather variability. The TAT task evolved in part because we got tired of losing perfectly good soaring days that had a shower or a blue hole over one of the turns. Talk about luck. If you think there's too much luck involved in choosing where in a TAT circle to turn, it's nothing compared with where to position an AST turn 3-6 hours before the first pilots arrive there...on a day when there's a 20%-40% chance of isolated T-storms.

I well remember wild rides under the leading edge of a storm trying to get in close enough to snap a photo (yeah, I'm living in the past) before being washed out of the sky. In some cases, being 1-2 minutes late arriving at the turn as a fast-moving squall line overran it was the difference between landing out and winning the day. THAT is luck.

TAT tasks trade off the uncertainty of where to turn against the uncertainty of picking the right TPs before the flying starts. I agree they're called too often. But it's not because of a conspiracy by the Rules Committee and their minions. It's because CDs really don't like the overt or behind-their-backs flack they get when a bunch of pilots who are paying a lot of money to fly an important contest see "no contest day" pop up because the first or second or third turn was 10 miles too far in one direction. Been there, done that many, many, many times.

I actually like ASTs better. But only when the weather is consistent or predictable enough that our average weatherman and CD can reliably ensure the task can be flown. We flew a bunch of tasks at Elmira last year where many of us finished only because the TAT cylinders allowed us to work around the blue holes and storms that frequently arose.

Nothing is perfect. But I guarantee you that if we were to move to a preponderance of ASTs, the average number of official days per contest would decline significantly. Or CDs would take to calling shorter, close-in tasks hoping to play it safe. Neither one of those is a desirable outcome, in my opinion.

The great thing about what you're proposing, Sean, is that it's not a new idea. It's the way things used to be. There were a lot of problems with it, which is the reason we adapted. Is today's tasking philosophy perfect? For sure, no. I'm up for exploring new options. But there's no panacea, despite today's better weather information. You're a proponent of change. We did change. Get with the program!

Chip Bearden

On Monday, February 8, 2016 at 10:47:38 AM UTC-8, John Cochrane wrote:
Now Sean, settle down. Yes, I understand the idea of the handicapped distance task, and I'm not against it. In fact, I wish we'd try far more things already in the rules -- last start time, OLC-type tasking or "distance day" achieved by 6 hour minimums, really long MATs with all turns assigned, worst day score adjustment, etc. etc.

So let's try it at some regionals and see if pilots like it.

There are two kinds of diametrically opposed feedback I hear about glider races. 1) "I want more eyeball to eyeball racing. It's getting boring out there so I'll stay home and fly OLC" 2) "I don't want to waste my gliding vacation on a bunch of short tasks, flying only 300 km on 750 km days. I'll stay home and fly OLC."

Handicapped distance task addresses 1, especially for pilots who find the strategic choice of where to turn in a turn area and how to use a clock to end the flight unpleasant. But it goes in the other direction on 2. Time-limited tasks are ideally suited to let each pilot get the most out of each day, without long retrieves. At the cost of less eyeball to eyeball racing feel.

Let's try both and see what pilots really want, facing the heartless sky, away from the comfort of their winter keyboards, and ponying up their precious weeks of vacation for the pleasure.

I'll be at Truckee this summer where they call the handicapped distance task with last start time. I'll be interested to try it.

John Cochrane

John, if you can manage it you should try to be at one of the Truckee Tagars events (4 a year). The FAI contest seems to be flown almost as a handicap distance task, every one usually starts at or very near the gate open and goes into the AAT cylinders pretty similar to the way a HDT would be flown. But the Tagars is a real HDT, and this year we will attempt to use Jim's software to do it. In the past the tasks were calculated more manually for each glider. Simultaneous start and first glider home wins.

How do you even know of that YouTube link?

Agreed Chip. I just want more than 2-3%. We need to value the purity of the assigned task far more than we currently do in US contests.

The MAT kills the AST. It is not a suitable substitute. It's the worst task on earth.

Increasing the number of ASTs (slightly, nothing ridiculous) starts with the pilots, and then the CDs and organizers. If the pilots see the value, then it will happen.

AST's = racing

All other tasks are timed, distance tasks.

Sean

What's so "pure" about the assigned task? The assigned task is deeply all about following tactics. Can you start just at the right time, pick up just the right gaggles, leave them just at the right time to catch the markers ahead, etc? Can you hide from people who want to follow you? Add IGC rules, and it becomes more tactical still, as your strategy depends so much on what others are doing, how many are landing out, and so on.

(That comment is most true with the standard start method. Grand prix or last start time is a different, but still intensely tactical game.)

Time limited tasks with largeish turn areas or a fairly free MAT are about pilot, sky, and ground. How many miles can you put under the glider in 3-4 hours? Sure it takes a lot of skill and a lot of thinking -- looking at weather, understanding terrain, plotting routes, making those big decisions about deviations vs. better lift, and so on. Your brain hurts in these tasks. Which is why many pilots dislike them.

But which is the "pure" measure of soaring skill, and which is the artificial tactical game? Granted many pilots are very very good at the tactical game, and reluctant to see those hard-won skills devalued. But that's a different argument.

Soaring racing did not start with the assigned task because it was the "pure" task. Soaring racing started with the assigned task because it was the only possible task, before GPS. The change from observers to cameras at turnpoints opened up the MAT possibility. And the invention of GPS opened up the turn area possibility. That technology opens up other possibilities too, such as the handicapped distance task.

"old" does not necessarily equate with "pure" or better.

John Cochrane BB

On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 at 8:31:30 AM UTC-8, John Cochrane wrote:
What's so "pure" about the assigned task? The assigned task is deeply all about following tactics. Can you start just at the right time, pick up just the right gaggles, leave them just at the right time to catch the markers ahead, etc? Can you hide from people who want to follow you? Add IGC rules, and it becomes more tactical still, as your strategy depends so much on what others are doing, how many are landing out, and so on.

(That comment is most true with the standard start method. Grand prix or last start time is a different, but still intensely tactical game.)

Time limited tasks with largeish turn areas or a fairly free MAT are about pilot, sky, and ground. How many miles can you put under the glider in 3-4 hours? Sure it takes a lot of skill and a lot of thinking -- looking at weather, understanding terrain, plotting routes, making those big decisions about deviations vs. better lift, and so on. Your brain hurts in these tasks. Which is why many pilots dislike them.

But which is the "pure" measure of soaring skill, and which is the artificial tactical game? Granted many pilots are very very good at the tactical game, and reluctant to see those hard-won skills devalued. But that's a different argument.

Soaring racing did not start with the assigned task because it was the "pure" task. Soaring racing started with the assigned task because it was the only possible task, before GPS. The change from observers to cameras at turnpoints opened up the MAT possibility. And the invention of GPS opened up the turn area possibility. That technology opens up other possibilities too, such as the handicapped distance task.

"old" does not necessarily equate with "pure" or better.

John Cochrane BB

Unfortunately the question "how many miles can you put under the glider in a day" is perhaps better answered by OLC. Pilots have voted that it is, by their participation. I agree that no task is inherently more pure than another, but OLC offered an alternative to SSA racing that many seem to prefer. There is really no reason to call a date and place and have everyone launch together during their vacation days, to determine "how many miles you can put under your glider in a day". It can be done on any weekend, and you can choose one with a good forecast.

I am trying to think of ANY other sport called "racing" with an analogous type of task. Imagine a Formula 1 race where the drivers could leave the start line anytime within an hour, drive to anywhere they please in a large area and thence to another, returning before a certain elapsed time limit, then we compare average speeds after dinner to determine the winner. Would anyone watch that race? Would anyone participate? Would you even call it a "race"?

The closest sport I can think of is sailing which is weather dependent even on course: do I take the left hand or right side, what will the wind and current do? This make the choice of course sailed between marks a tactical one. Even so, I can think of NO sailboat race in which the competitors are allowed to start when they want, sail to their choice of mark in a large area and even pick the areas en route, get credit for the actual distance sailed, and the winner called on the basis of average speed over all the different courses sailed. It would be all about "the helmsman, the wind and the water". I can assure you no one would participate in that sort of event. No one would call it a "race".

Yet this is typical SSA 'racing'.

In racing, the reason you call a time and date and course and start together, is to see who makes better use of the equipment and conditions, on that course, at that time, observing the other competitors so as to evaluate your performance each minute.

Well said jfitch

John C, you're on the USRC! You should have a sensitivity to our complete abandonment of international tasking standards.

But I do enjoy our annual winter tangle about assigned tasks. Almost extinct in the USA. Maybe 5-8 a year and falling...

It is well known that you (and the USRC) believe assigned tasks are not important and prefer MATs. You think MATs are a better mousetrap. As a result, we currently run 10-1 MATs vs ASTs in the USA.

While at the same time, internationally, 50% of the tasks are AST, 50% TAT (much smaller radii). That's why assigned tasks are important.

Assigned RACING tasks are pure becuase they require no scoring formulas (well wait a minute, US rules do because you guys molested the AST by allowing cheeky distance grabs in the 1 mile "assigned" turn points, negating the concept of an actual race!), no fancy computers and have less variables (luck). These tasks are the simplest tasks for beginners and contest organizers. They are fun!

Sean