Are 'Single 180 Turn From Downwind to Final' and 'Stall-spin on Turnfrom Base to Final' mutually exclusive?

On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 9:30:01 AM UTC+3, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.

--
Dan, 5J

It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Define "coordinated". No problem to spin with the string perfectly centered..

It's true in any glider with enough elevator, but the Blanik is excellent for demonstrating it. Shallow turn, very graaaadually slow it down, maintaining constant bank angle with aileron and keeping the string in the middle with the rudder. Pretty soon you've got a whole heap of out of turn aileron and into turn rudder. But the string is in the middle and the nose isn't even very high. And then BAM full-on incipient spin.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 00:50:56 -0800, Bruce Hoult wrote:

On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 9:30:01 AM UTC+3, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have
to do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and
University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs
rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety
Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.

--
Dan, 5J

It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a
way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying
coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would
really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach
stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent
spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination
indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination
indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have
to look at it and react to it).

Define "coordinated". No problem to spin with the string perfectly
centered.

It's true in any glider with enough elevator, but the Blanik is
excellent for demonstrating it. Shallow turn, very graaaadually slow it
down, maintaining constant bank angle with aileron and keeping the
string in the middle with the rudder. Pretty soon you've got a whole
heap of out of turn aileron and into turn rudder. But the string is in
the middle and the nose isn't even very high. And then BAM full-on
incipient spin.

Sounds like something the Puchacz would also do rather well. Must try it
during my next annual check.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

My Stemme has built-in AoA indication but it's on the EFIS and I'm
looking outside during the pattern. All you really need is to be able
to recognize sloppy controls, reduced noise, and uncommanded movement of
the nose. This has been discussed to death (no pun intended). There's
no instrument that can protect you as well as training and practice and,
if you need to rely on an instrument, maybe you should be keeping
tropical fish instead of flying.

On 11/18/2016 11:29 PM, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.
--
Dan, 5J
It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Tom

--
Dan, 5J

Link to the AOPA/UND landing pattern study:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...lized-approach

There is no doubt in my mind which is the safer pattern; and it doesn't involve multiple turns at low altitude....

I hope they also look at pattern entry, since, unlike the current 45 degree entry to downwind, an initial entry to an overhead pattern (See AIM if you are unfamiliar) will automatically put you at the same downwind position EVERY

On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 9:52:04 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
My Stemme has built-in AoA indication but it's on the EFIS and I'm
looking outside during the pattern. All you really need is to be able
to recognize sloppy controls, reduced noise, and uncommanded movement of
the nose. This has been discussed to death (no pun intended). There's
no instrument that can protect you as well as training and practice and,
if you need to rely on an instrument, maybe you should be keeping
tropical fish instead of flying.

On 11/18/2016 11:29 PM, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.
--
Dan, 5J
It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Tom

--
Dan, 5J

I rely on my instruments EVERY time I fly, especially in the landing phase; don't you? Training and practice are a good thing, but they CAN'T substitute for good instruments, only teach us to use them properly. One can compensate for the loss of an instrument, like airspeed, but one would not deliberately not pay attention to a working ASI in the landing phase.

I, too, have an AOA; it is the artificial horizon in my Air Avionics (aka Butterfly) vario. I do not find it particularly helpful. I prefer to monitor the real-time wind indicator instead. I also assume that you pay attention to wind socks...

Tom

On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 12:50:58 AM UTC-8, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 9:30:01 AM UTC+3, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.

--
Dan, 5J

It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Define "coordinated". No problem to spin with the string perfectly centered.

It's true in any glider with enough elevator, but the Blanik is excellent for demonstrating it. Shallow turn, very graaaadually slow it down, maintaining constant bank angle with aileron and keeping the string in the middle with the rudder. Pretty soon you've got a whole heap of out of turn aileron and into turn rudder. But the string is in the middle and the nose isn't even very high. And then BAM full-on incipient spin.

You just confirmed what I said: it is very HARD to spin flying coordinated (not that it can't be done). You also have to ignore your other instruments, particularly the ASI.

Tom

Link to the AOPA/UND landing pattern safety study:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...lized-approach

No doubt in my mind which is the safer way to fly a pattern - the one that doesn't require rolling into and out of several 90 turns at low altitude...

I hope they also evaluate the best way to enter a pattern - The beauty of using the overhead entry to downwind (See AIM for details) is that if you know the field elevation, an overhead pattern will always put you at the same place on downwind relative to your landing aim point, regardless of whether it's your home airfield or someplace you have never been before. Combined with a 180 turn to land, it makes arrivals and landings reliably repeatable and consistent - and safer, IMO (and apparently in the opinions of most militaries, etc...).

Looking at this image of experienced pilots landing (cribbed from a previous post, thanks!) http://noss.ws/temp/patterns.jpg, I see only ONE trace that is a classic square pattern, with a couple more that are a bit less angular. The rest seem to be more or less continual turns to final.

Kirk
66

AWOS before entering pattern
Wind sock, also before entering pattern
ASI occasionally
I can't think of anything else I need to fly a pattern.

When my wife was training in a G-103, a bug plugged the pitot tube. She
had no trouble flying the pattern without an ASI.

On 11/19/2016 4:24 PM, 2G wrote:
On Saturday, November 19, 2016 at 9:52:04 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
My Stemme has built-in AoA indication but it's on the EFIS and I'm
looking outside during the pattern. All you really need is to be able
to recognize sloppy controls, reduced noise, and uncommanded movement of
the nose. This has been discussed to death (no pun intended). There's
no instrument that can protect you as well as training and practice and,
if you need to rely on an instrument, maybe you should be keeping
tropical fish instead of flying.

On 11/18/2016 11:29 PM, 2G wrote:
On Friday, November 18, 2016 at 8:06:21 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
To reply to the subject question in a word: NO.

You can stall and spin from any attitude or airspeed. All you have to
do is plan and execute it correctly or simply f*ck up the turn.

On 11/18/2016 6:25 AM, wrote:
An AOPA article states that the AOPA Safety Institute and University of North Dakota are studying the "circular vs rectangular" pattern as a result of the NTSB "Most Wanted Safety Improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the study produces.
--
Dan, 5J
It's REALLY hard to spin while flying coordinated - if you know of a way I would truly like to know. It is also tough to stall while flying coordinated because it takes a very high angle of attack and you would really have to work it keeping the glider coordinated as you approach stall. The FAA is emphasizing an angle of attack indicator to prevent spins; I think what is needed is an audible flight coordination indicator. In our gliders we have a heads-up flight coordination indicator which is even better - it's called a yaw string (but you have to look at it and react to it).

Tom
--
Dan, 5J
I rely on my instruments EVERY time I fly, especially in the landing phase; don't you? Training and practice are a good thing, but they CAN'T substitute for good instruments, only teach us to use them properly. One can compensate for the loss of an instrument, like airspeed, but one would not deliberately not pay attention to a working ASI in the landing phase.

I, too, have an AOA; it is the artificial horizon in my Air Avionics (aka Butterfly) vario. I do not find it particularly helpful. I prefer to monitor the real-time wind indicator instead. I also assume that you pay attention to wind socks...

Tom

--
Dan, 5J

I pay more attention to my vario in the pattern than I do my ASI. The wind sock is probably the most important thing to be aware of when landing, everything else you can feel, hear, and see. It's very easy to miss that the wind has doubled since you took off.

Boggs

Tom,

Is the Artificial Horizon really an AoA Indicator? If you hold a true nose-on-the-horizon in a glider, it will slow down and begin a descent, which means the AoA is increasing, but the nose still shows a 0 degree reference to the horizon. I've been teaching and flying instruments for 22 years and even in a power plane the Artificial Horizon almost never shows the Angle of attack.

Mike