Airpower: India threatens US air superiority

"Tuollaf43" wrote in message
m...
"Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP" wrote in message
news:jbnDc.186536$Ly.72@attbi_s01...
"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
...
(Karen Gordon) wrote:

K): Would that be the 'superior U.S. airforce' that has killed
thousands
f innocent civilians and allies in its various invasions of other
:countries?
:--
: """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""
: You don't have to fool all the people all of the time;
: you just have to fool enough to get elected. - G. Barzan
: """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""

And they've obviously found one fool up in the Frozen North.

Are the overwhelming majority of Canadians really this mentally
challenged, or it is just the ones that post here?

These days it seems to be most of them.

Note that the original poster stated "... has killed thousands of
innocent
civilians..." without providing some kind of evidence? Since the
unpleasantness in VietNam, IIRC, the USAF has done an admirable job of
avoiding civilian casualties. The recent exercise in Iraq showed beyond
question how precision munitions could limit civilian casualties. To
date,
I've seen no evidence that civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan
number more than a few hundred, if that many.

You must have not been looking then. The death toll has easily crossed
10,000. Western media reported Iraqi civilian casualties alone crossed
thousand dead in the first month of the invasion itself. The US
authority has been careful not to officially keep a count of civilian
casualties in Iraq - unless ofcourse they are "contractors".

Just google 'iraq civilian casualties'. But why bother? They were just
wogs.

Google it and what you find is a whole bunch of unsubstantiated accusations
with little or no proof to back them up.

If you count phone centers you can. The Indians also do a lot of
analyzing of US CAT scan data and similar things. Some might consider
looking at a CAT scan to be performing a service. Its certainly not
manufacturing.

Indians do much more than analyzing CAT scan data.
There is no way born Americans can compete with Indians.Currently
38% of Medical Doctors in US is either Indian or Indo-American
36% of NASA employees are Indians
34%of MS employees are for example from the India.
CEOs of many US companies are from India.
Either jobs will go to India or Indians will come here to take the jobs

Pick your choice.

Indians do much more than analyzing CAT scan data.
There is no way born Americans can compete with Indians.Currently
38% of Medical Doctors in US is either Indian or Indo-American
36% of NASA employees are Indians
34%of MS employees are for example from the India.
CEOs of many US companies are from India.
Either jobs will go to India or Indians will come here to take the jobs

Good lord, I see you're still as deluded as ever.

"Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP" wrote in message news:5RLDc.107143$Hg2.21338@attbi_s04...
"Tuollaf43" wrote in message
m...
"Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP" wrote in message
news:jbnDc.186536$Ly.72@attbi_s01...
"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
...
(Karen Gordon) wrote:

K): Would that be the 'superior U.S. airforce' that has killed
thousands
f innocent civilians and allies in its various invasions of other
:countries?
:--
: """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""
: You don't have to fool all the people all of the time;
: you just have to fool enough to get elected. - G. Barzan
: """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """""""""""""""""

And they've obviously found one fool up in the Frozen North.

Are the overwhelming majority of Canadians really this mentally
challenged, or it is just the ones that post here?

These days it seems to be most of them.

Note that the original poster stated "... has killed thousands of
innocent
civilians..." without providing some kind of evidence? Since the
unpleasantness in VietNam, IIRC, the USAF has done an admirable job of
avoiding civilian casualties. The recent exercise in Iraq showed beyond
question how precision munitions could limit civilian casualties. To
date,
I've seen no evidence that civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan
number more than a few hundred, if that many.

You must have not been looking then. The death toll has easily crossed
10,000. Western media reported Iraqi civilian casualties alone crossed
thousand dead in the first month of the invasion itself. The US
authority has been careful not to officially keep a count of civilian
casualties in Iraq - unless ofcourse they are "contractors".

Just google 'iraq civilian casualties'. But why bother? They were just
wogs.

Google it and what you find is a whole bunch of unsubstantiated accusations
with little or no proof to back them up.

1. Well if you are the paranoid sort who believes the whole western
media (including mainstream US media houses) are out to do the US in,
I'm afraid I cant help you. You can continue to killfile all those who
disagree with you - I am sure that knowning that you wont read their
posts will shatter them.
2. Lack of proof and unsubstantiated accusations didnt dampen US ardor
to go to war did it, eh?

"Eunometic" wrote in message ...
"hobo" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Eunometic" wrote:

Many parts of the US are deindustrializing. Engineering,
manufacturing and hi-tech jobs are disappearing and being replaced
with services jobs. (most in low paid domestic services: the job
led
recovery is a bit of a sham)

It's the reverse. With the decline in the dollar manufacturing is
returning to the US. What is being outsourced are service jobs.

Plenty of evidence to the contrary.

http://www.vdare.com/roberts/college_graduates.htm
http://www.vdare.com/roberts/jobs_front.htm
http://www.vdare.com/francis/outsourcing.htm
http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/income.htm


You can't outsource most services jobs very effectively. Unless you
count Hispanics who have effectively replaced (outsource) teenagers
and low income Whites and will eventually outsource most Whites
completely in the US completely on current trends.

Can't they outsource Bush, the Neocons and Democrats? Surely some
Indian could produce the same drivel they do at 1/10th the price.

I'm afraid Indians cant help you there - they are themselves trying to
outsourcing the drivel spouting politician job to the Italians. But
have a care, and be careful what you wish for. If drivel is what you
want then you will not get any finer politician for it than in India.

"Nele VII" wrote in message ...
Let's get some facts, please. Mig-21 is probably the most docile supersonic
fighter that has been in use since 1961 in some 50 countries. It is known
for it straightfowardness and superb handling, only drawback known to me is
inertia roll coupling when doing extremely high-rate unloaded rolls (the
same thing it shares with F-15). It is in Indian service since 1963 in
almost all versions. Suddenly, they need a Hawk training? Come on!

Not suddenly - they have been begging for the hawk for the past two decades.


Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA



Ron wrote in message ...
Is the IAF attrition rate any worse than say USAF or the RAF? If so by
what metric and by how much? Do you have any hard numbers or even
reasonable estimates? How does the IAF attrition rate per 100K hours
or sorties compare with say USAF, RAF, PLAAF or PAF?

The Indian attrition rate in the Mig-21 has been horrible and they call it
the
"flying coffin". They are going to start sending new pilots to the UK for
about a hundred hours of advanced training in the Hawk, so pilots will have
a
big more experience, since new pilots have typically been getting the
Mig-21,
probably the most demanding of the planes they fly.


Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message ...
"Ron" wrote in message
...
Is the IAF attrition rate any worse than say USAF or the RAF? If so by
what metric and by how much? Do you have any hard numbers or even
reasonable estimates? How does the IAF attrition rate per 100K hours
or sorties compare with say USAF, RAF, PLAAF or PAF?

The Indian attrition rate in the Mig-21 has been horrible and they call it
the
"flying coffin". They are going to start sending new pilots to the UK
for
about a hundred hours of advanced training in the Hawk, so pilots will
have a
big more experience, since new pilots have typically been getting the
Mig-21,
probably the most demanding of the planes they fly.

One of the Indian newspapers ran an article by a former Indian AF pilot
defending the Mig-21; rather tenuous defense, IMO, and one that lost a lot
of credibility when it tried to paint the FC-1/JF-17 as a development of the
Mig-21/F-7 line!
Worse, the writer claims that other aircraft (i.e.,
Mig-23/27) actually had a *worse* accident rate during some recent
years--ouch!

www.indian-express.com/ie20020331/week3.html

Curiously, the IAF, while it has repeatedly claimed that its accident rate
is no worse than other large air forces, does not seem to have released its
actual accident rate figures for the past few years (unlike the US military,
which provides an annual synopsis of the accident rate in each service).

OK here's one statistic. In the past ten years the MiG-21's flew
553,000 sorties in IAF service with a total of 98 accidents with 43
pilots killed.

So what are the comparable accident rates for USAF, RAF, PAF or PLAAF?
How much better are they?



Brooks



Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India

I've got no doubt that the IAF can mount some very good drivers with a
load of experience. I've also got no doubt that the USAF can send some
inexperienced, marginally competent drivers to exercises and even into
combat. One can only recall Scott "Hoover" O'Grady for example.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)

I bet you would put him in the category of "Flies fighters" as instead of a
fighter pilot

Apparently his actions were a Charlie Foxtrot on the ground too, not just the
air.


Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India

"Tuollaf43" wrote in message
om...
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...
"Ron" wrote in message
...
Is the IAF attrition rate any worse than say USAF or the RAF? If so
by
what metric and by how much? Do you have any hard numbers or even
reasonable estimates? How does the IAF attrition rate per 100K hours
or sorties compare with say USAF, RAF, PLAAF or PAF?

The Indian attrition rate in the Mig-21 has been horrible and they
call it
the
"flying coffin". They are going to start sending new pilots to the
UK
for
about a hundred hours of advanced training in the Hawk, so pilots will
have a
big more experience, since new pilots have typically been getting the
Mig-21,
probably the most demanding of the planes they fly.

One of the Indian newspapers ran an article by a former Indian AF pilot
defending the Mig-21; rather tenuous defense, IMO, and one that lost a
lot
of credibility when it tried to paint the FC-1/JF-17 as a development of
the
Mig-21/F-7 line!
Worse, the writer claims that other aircraft (i.e.,
Mig-23/27) actually had a *worse* accident rate during some recent
years--ouch!

www.indian-express.com/ie20020331/week3.html

Curiously, the IAF, while it has repeatedly claimed that its accident
rate
is no worse than other large air forces, does not seem to have released
its
actual accident rate figures for the past few years (unlike the US
military,
which provides an annual synopsis of the accident rate in each service).

OK here's one statistic. In the past ten years the MiG-21's flew
553,000 sorties in IAF service with a total of 98 accidents with 43
pilots killed.

So what are the comparable accident rates for USAF, RAF, PAF or PLAAF?
How much better are they?

Why don't you get back to us when the IAF has the guts to publish its
accident statistics as the US, UK, etc., routinely do, and in a form that
actually allows direct comparison (your X number of sorties bit does not cut
the mustard)? Until then we have the likes of the article cited, which does
not really offer up much of a defense at all...

Brooks




Brooks



Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India

"Tuollaf43" wrote in message
m...
"Nele VII" wrote in message
...
Let's get some facts, please. Mig-21 is probably the most docile
supersonic
fighter that has been in use since 1961 in some 50 countries. It is
known
for it straightfowardness and superb handling, only drawback known to me
is
inertia roll coupling when doing extremely high-rate unloaded rolls (the
same thing it shares with F-15). It is in Indian service since 1963 in
almost all versions. Suddenly, they need a Hawk training? Come on!

Not suddenly - they have been begging for the hawk for the past two
decades.

But why have they been "begging" for it if, as you just tried to assert in
another message, there is really no problem with existing IAF training and
accidents?

Brooks



Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA



Ron wrote in message ...
Is the IAF attrition rate any worse than say USAF or the RAF? If so by
what metric and by how much? Do you have any hard numbers or even
reasonable estimates? How does the IAF attrition rate per 100K hours
or sorties compare with say USAF, RAF, PLAAF or PAF?

The Indian attrition rate in the Mig-21 has been horrible and they call
it
the
"flying coffin". They are going to start sending new pilots to the UK
for
about a hundred hours of advanced training in the Hawk, so pilots will
have
a
big more experience, since new pilots have typically been getting the
Mig-21,
probably the most demanding of the planes they fly.


Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India