Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.

Press guy then. Public information guy, whatever. Armed with a camera
and
notebook.


Actually, I think he had a typewriter.

Glad to hear. You can do more hurt by hitting someone with a typoewriter than
stabbing with a pencil.

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: ost (Chris Mark)
Date: 7/11/2004 12:20 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I think Ed said he had 100 and I flew 50. So you still lead the pack. Well
done.

Thanks but I defer to one Paul Dembrowsky, on whose wing I flew on a six
month
deployment to Thailand in 72. He had 479 at the start of the deployment.


Sheeesh. The mind boggles as the blood curles. No one in WW II got nearly
that
many.

One of the more impressive gentlemen I ever met was Max Mortensen. He served
with one of the B-25 groups in the Pacific during WW2--served is putting it
mildly. He joined it as a 2nd Lt. and stayed with the unit through 26 months
of continuous combat, flying iirc some 110 combat missions and rising to the
rank of Lt. Col. He survived everything the enemy could throw at him,
including a direct flak hit in the bomb bay while over Rabaul, which ignited
the WP bomblets, finally being shot down while attacking a frigate, near
Hainan
Island iirc during the closing days of the war, captured by the Japanese,
starved and tortured (one of the thee crewmen who survived the ditching died
under the torture). He was rescued by an OSS team led by John Singlaub, the
same Singlaub who, as commander of UN forces in Korea was fired by Pres.
Carter
in a pretty messy incident.
You may know Mortensen. He was the last commander of the former 344th (by
then renamed something else) when it was based in France in the early 1950s
and
flying Douglas B-26s (nee A-26).


Chris Mark


Interesting stuff. I never knew Mortensen. I was gone by then I left for home
in July 1946. I know the 344th was renamed, but I forgot what. But I did serve
in the A-26's for a while. Nice hot little plene. I liked it a lot better than
the Marauders. Better escape route for the Bombardier.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: "D. Strang"
Date: 7/11/2004 12:21 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: wpgIc.22560$r3.20264@okepread03

"ArtKramr" wrote

Bombers flew missions. Fighters flew sorties.

Fighter pilots probably speak French better...


That was good. Very good. (:-)




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Ed Rasimus" wrote
"D. Strang" wrote:
"ArtKramr" wrote

I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the war
would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.

War is attractive to youth. Americans love war. Most veterans will tell you they
were scared, wouldn't do it again, but deep down--their lives were nothing before,
or after the war.


Your reply to Art sounds like the beginning of the George C. Scott
"Patton" speech--"American's love a good fight." But, the daily
blathering seems to refute that, at least for the current crop.
American's love to stay home and watch the latest reality show while
someone else does the fighting for them. They love to forget the
reality of life and the truism that "freedom isn't free."

Few veterans will tell you they were scared. They certainly won't tell
you that before the fight and few will confess to it during the fight.
Some will admit it years after the war.

But warriors WILL do it again and then again. The numbers of warriors
that served multiple tours in combat zones, that served multiple
overseas tours and separations from families, that re-upped and made a
career out of defending an ungrateful nation certainly were more than
willing to do it again.

And, their lives after the war are much more than those of the
pathetic whimperers who think nothing is worth more than self. Those
who kept faith with their brothers in arms walk taller than those who
turned their back on them for the political gains of the moment.

General Yeager tells a story in his book, where one time he was scared to
fly. I'm probably not describing it correctly, as he wasn't scared, he was
sure he was going to die. That's more what I mean. In combat, there are
times when you are sure you are going to die, and maybe scared isn't the
right word, but worrying about your family or fellow soldiers, who will now
have to deal with that.

You have a much better writing skill than I, and agree with everything you've
said here.

From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 7/11/2004 11:16 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: Mike Williamson
Date: 7/11/2004 7:57 AM Pac

Since that form doesn't have a date, and according to the first
section, deals with being recalled for non-flying duty, it appears
to deal with inactive duty after going off active duty, and is
therefore irrelevant to the discussion. Perhaps the (obviously
objective) owner of the site "awolbush.com" would provide the rest
of the form so that we might see the actual context of the
form?

I'll not hold my breath waiting, if you don't mind...

The volunteering for deployment in the F-102 was covered quite
some time ago- during the 2000 Presidential campaign, as I recall..

Mike



The man didn't want to fight. End of story.



Arthur Kramer

More neo-left logic? If that were the case he was foolish to apply for a flying
slot in a branch that's all about combat aircraft.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/11/2004 6:39 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Mea culpa. Mea culpa. Now if Bush knew about those golf courses......

He tried to get into a program that could have landed hime near
one of them. He didn't have enough stick time it seems.


The only thing I've seen is that Bush declined to volunteer for Viet Nam.

A link:

http://awolbush.com/images/kerr_bush_nam.gif


Walt

Walt, you are repeating yourself, a typical neo-left action. I don't know if
the USMC had "dream sheets," but the Army and Air Force did. I filled out one
in the Army volunteering for Viet Nam, they sent me, I filled one out in the
USAF as "not an overseas volunteer" and stayed stateside for my first year. I
volunteered for West Germany and was there a few months later. I filled out a
dream sheet while I was there listing only northern SAC bases and wond up in
special ops in Florida for 14 years.

Now then, how many people in your OCS class put "not an overseas volunteer" on
their dream sheet? I won't bother asking if you did.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

The man didn't want to fight. End of story.

According to Yossarian's doctor, that meant he was sane.

From: (Smartace11)


snip

A
two star I worked for did his tour as a navigator (!!) on a T-39 Learjet (c/s
Scatback) that ferried between Clark Air Base Phillipines, Saigon, and the
Thai
bases.

Not to be difficult, but the T-39 Sabreliner was made by Rockwell.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

From: ojunk (Steve Mellenthin)
Date: 7/11/2004 10:13 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Minor nit-pick. The (C)T-39 was the Sabreliner. Learjets didn't come
into AF service until the 1980's, replacing the Sabreliner in many
instances. The Navy still flies T-39s.

You're right. I misspoke in trying to relate to the youngsters here what a
T-39 was.

Gee, you must be REAL old. g
I used to work on the A and B models. Nice little airplane. A pain to work on.

We used to have Dymo® labels over the pilot and copilot's windscreens saying
"Caution: B model, do not stall above 25,000 feet." Most of those labels were
reduced to "Caution: B model" by some wise ass.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I woulen't exactly call a 50 ship Linebacker a sortie.



What's a Linebacker?


Arthur Kramer

You pullin' my leg here or just haven't been readig the dialog here for the
last couple of years?

I'd say you will have to wait for Ed's next book but I wil cut you some slack
because I've enjoyed your WWII stories.

Linebacker was the code name for Nixon's air campaign against North Vietnam in
1972 as Rolling Thunder was under Johnson inprevious years. There were two
phases. LB One involved mostly fighter ops and LB Two was a concentrated
campaign using B-52s over RP 6.

A Linebacker mission involved fighters, fighter-bombers or bombers, escorts,
comm, early warning, combat air patrols (CAP), pre and post strike recon,
tankers, airborne command and control, rescue, jammers, electronic intel
(ELINT), among other functions. On the order of a large heavy bomber strike in
the ETO. Same tonnage of bombs, just needed fewer planes to deliver. Usually
50 - 100 planes or so.