Happy Fourth, Folks!

My responses below:

I spent literally DAYS waiting in large, suffocating
(because smoking is allowed in public, or at least allowed to government
employees), uncomfortable waiting rooms waiting to get one piece of
paper or
another stamped by some "official".

many things changed dramatically in many parts of Europe. Well, I can
only speak for Austria. But in many areas, smoking was prohibited, esp.
in government buildings.

I think this is going in the "right" direction, and I hope that soon
Europeans will enjoy the clean indoor public air that Americans have been
enjoying for the last fifteen years. Last time I was there, there actually
were "no smoking" signs in the public buildings, but apparently the
officialls took that to mean that no one but them could smoke. When I
pointed out the no smoking sign on the wall right by the official's ear, I
just got a laugh and the comment "this isn't America." A talk with this
person's supervisor (and it was really difficult to figure out who was in
charge) yielded the same result.


bureaucracy is a serious problem, but they make many efforts to move up
to online-services etc. - the system is only as good as the people
behind it.


This is good, but I think the "official" mentality is much more pervasive in
Europe than in the US, and is likely to remain this way for a good long
while. It's like the FAA was running EVERYTHING :-)


What really turned me off from the ideal of "free higher education" is
the
state of the universities in Germany. There is absolutely no comparison

but you stand right. it is free (or with a small annual fee now), so you
don't have to take care. bad habit.

The "it's free, so stop complaining" attitude is 100% expected, and nothing
can be done about it. It just comes with the territory when you give
something away for "free", and has to be accepted by a society that
idealizes free higher education (or free anything else, for that matter).
When you get something for free, you have no ownership, and ownership is
what keeps things nice. On the whole, take a look at a random sampling of
renter planes and then owned planes. Guess which ones will be nicer?
That's the difference between socialized education/medicine/whatever and
(for the most part) the American system.



Unfortunately, the same things that plague the German free education
system
....
seems that the German electorate and parliment are absolutely unwilling
to
do anything about it.

they are trying, but many lobbies try to prevent it. doctors and
pharmacy industry will do everything to prevent changes. Joe Everywhere
has no chance to stand up and point out his needs.

I have found that Germans are on the whole very resistant to change, and
very risk averse. This probably explains the attitudes that have created
the current system, and why they can't change it. Hopefully they'll do it
before it becomes a real crisis.


The other thing that bothers me about the socialist ways of European

whenever we hear socialism we tend to interpret it as a "not-any-more
communist situation". So in most european ears socialism is associated
with the former DDR or Russia.


Socialist is the best word to describe the German, and most European
systems, IMHO. You're right though, it does have that "former soviet
influenced" conotative baggage with it, and that is not what I mean by it.
I'm using it in the way that many German political parties use it, a la
Social Democrats.


This is really a thing that one can't learn. Europeans can't learn the
US system and vice-versa, because it is a feeling you have to be grown
up with. For Germany it was a tough decision to send German UN
(!)-troops abroad. Because it ment sending German soldiers abroad.
Within Europe. 50 years ago, German troops where also there, .... - hope
you see my point.


Good points. I think this is about the time that the dialog needs to
intensify and that Germany needs to start getting over the trauma of its
past. Likewise, the US should probably be a little more sensitive to the
European mindset. I've always thought that diplomacy is lacking in the
current US administration, and that is one of the things hampering
relations. However, both sides need to be more understanding of the other.


I had many conversations
with Germans about this topic, and it seems to me that they just don't
understand the American position that it is important to maintain a
strong
army to keep peace in the world.


see above. you have to be raised with this situation. I have visited the
Titan II missile museum near Tucson, AZ, 2 or 3 times. They display a
intercontinental ballistic missile. A guy about the age of 70 explained
everything. In the command room he explained a launch with words like
"if we receive the lawful order of the president of the United
States..." and explained the power of destruction, it only needs 3 of
those well placed over the US to destroy the whole US and they had about
50 of those, etc. etc ... well ... I felt uncomfortable and understood
within a second the cold war, Cuba crisis, etc ... it was normal
business for the guy. He was raised within a climate that allowed this.
OTOH, we are raised in another climate that allowed other viewpoints.


Again, very good point.

An army may not be needed right now, but
you never know when you're going to need it.


See? Just like I tried to explain above.


yup.

The last position you want to
be in is to NEED an army and not have one. These things are expensive,
and
Germans (and indeed many other countries) have been benefiting from the
United States bearing the brunt of these costs for a long time. This is
a
product of history and I'm not complaining that the U.S. has done this,
nor
am I looking for any sort of profuse gratitude. Simply an
acknowledgement,
that is all.


yes.
OTOH, many Germans complain about the US airplanes training at the bases
within Germany. I can't say anything to this issue, because we don't
have any foreign bases here.


This is always a point of friction, since military jets are LOUD. If
Germans grow up thinking that military stuff is for someone else and that
they don't need it, then I could see how they could be annoyed by it.
Intrestingly, the same sort of sentiments have been brewing in South Korea,
with proud Korean nationalists shouting for the Americans to go home. When
Rumsfeld hinted that the US would be happy to accommodate and pull out, they
shut up, all of a sudden realizing the consequenses of removing the US from
the Korean equation. The North isn't getting any friendlier...

looking for jobs, artificial early retirement programs, generous
disability
status, and impossibly long student status. These are numbers that I
got
from the economic research I did while studying there, and are accepted
by
many economists versed in the German economy.


but true, the official rate is higher and the method of calculating the
official rate is strange.


Strange to say the least...

Since the education system is controlled from the top - i.e. the
education
ministry decides each year how many slots will be available for computer
science each year-, there are always much greater disparities in Germany
between labor supply and demand. Since the curriculum is typically
taught
in an academic setting very far removed from industry (a problem
everywhere,
but particularly acute in Germany), new graduates have to be retrained
at

many things changed dramatically within the last years.


This would be very positive, and I hope this can truly change. However,
knowing what I know about the system and the motives of those in charge of
the universities, something tells me that it will be a VERY slow process.

great cost. Finally, AFAIK, you have to take whatever person the union
gives you, and unlike the US style unions, you really have little choice

the Unions have more power than they deserve, IMHO. But right now they
have big troubles because they lost a fight with employers.


That's what I hear. It took a hell of a long time for them to get to this,
though. They really got to the edge, pushing industry to the brink.

I said I was carless, but I did rent cars. Conclusion; the Autobahn is
AWESOME! No other road compares. You are Driver in Command, and
whatever

almost everybody I speaks to in the US loves the Autobahn and wants to
take a car out there and drive th hell out of it. :-))


Did that with an Audi A4 and loved it! :-)

you and your machine can handle that day goes. When the traffic is
high,
it's like everywhere else. If you wake up early, it's faster than a
Cessna
172 :-)

It is not unlikely to drive 200 km/h (or faster) - in Germany. In
Austria we have a limit at 130 km/h.


The Audi would go 200km/h straight and level, and 210km/h downhill. Took
forever getting there, but it's really not bad for a 1.6 liter engine! I
got to go on the Nurburgring as well, and did 3 laps with the Audi, and then
got a lap with a Porsche GT3. We hit 280km/h :-)


I admire the way that Germany has proactively been protecting people's
privacy. I don't admire the historical events that have led to
necessitating those strong protections, but I'm glad to see that Germans
are
very cognizant of the importance of privacy and limitations on
government
surveilance.


This changed a lot. Surveillance is a big issue on many privacy
concerned lists and groups. government is able to put up many
restrictions in the name of fighting terrorism and for higher securtiy
... :-/(

It's at least debated more over in Europe. Citizens everywhere should be on
the alert!


Then there is the food. Especially the bakeries. There was a lot of

For me, buying bread in the US was always a pain in the ... - you know.
I have to check out, well, german bakeries next time.


yup. It was reverse culture shock for me coming back.

pleasure in picking up some fresh rolls and maybe a pastry on the way to
work. Good wine and cheese are really easy to come by, and pretty cheap
too.

I have seen a change in advantage for Europe in terms of cost of living
within the last 6 or so years.

This is influenced, among other things, by the Wal Mart effect. Wal Mart
keeps inflation really low in the United States by keeping its suppliers
(mostly in China and elsewhere abroad) under tight price pressures. Aldi in
Germany does the same. Apparently that has had an effect on European
economies.


There are little bars and restaurants everywhere to go to lunch at,
and generally there was life on the street that constrasts with the
American
style zoning that isolates "working" and "shopping" areas from "living"
areas. I like the European approach more, but then again I grew up with
that sort of lifestyle in Israel. I think there's a trend here to allow
more blended zoning here in the US now too.


I was once in a steak-house in Phoenix. There was a family of about 10
coming after us and leaving the restaurant before us. Come in, order,
eat, pay, leave. We tend more to stay a little bit, have a coffee, chat
a bit, ...

It's definitely a slower pace of life in Europe. Good? Bad? Just
different? Depends on your values.


Then there is the Bier. Enough said :-)


and coffee. 'nuff said. :-)
you'll probably need a prescription in the US to drink that coffee :-)


Many people here have become quite the coffee connoisseurs, including my
wife. It's one thing that Europeans and Americans have begun to agree on.


There are a bunch more things I could touch on, but this has become a
long
enough core dump... Suffice to say that there are great and not so
great
things about both countries and both continents. I prefer to stick to
this
side of the pond, but I love visiting all of my European friends every
once
in a while.


you have put it very well. thanks. I hope I was able to point out my
viewpoint well enough ... well, my english gets worse every day ...


It's nice to see that we were able to discuss this so civilly. Usenet is so
much nicer when people can simply appreciate other people's viewpoints and
keep things on an intellectual level. We all learn a lot more that way.
Oh, and your English - it's just fine. You elaborated your points well.

Cheers,
Aviv