Flaps and V-Tails of Death

Eric Greenwell originally replied...
If you believe that, perhaps you haven't been told "all the bad things".
For example, I've had HP pilots tell me getting sucked up into a cloud
can be "awkward" to deal with when all you've got is flaps.

My first and only flight in an HP went like Mr. Berry's; even so, I hope
anyone beginning to fly a flaps only glider gets thorough checkout,
because there are ways to go wrong.

Bob Whelan followed with...

No offense, Eric, but speaking from the vantage point of one with all
his
(greater-than)
1-26 glide-ratio time in flaps-only ships (C-70, HP-14, Zuni), the more
powerful the flaps, the _less_ 'exciting' it need be if you allow
yourself
to get sucked into a cloud.


Eric G. further replied...
The situations described to me were the difficulty of avoiding the cloud
entry in the first place. A pilot can open his spoilers at 90 knots and
begin descending immediately, but deploying the flaps at 90 knots first
increases your altitude, making it much harder to stay out of the cloud.
If you do lose control in a cloud, lots of drag is an advantage.

The main point I hoped to make is landings aren't the only way spoilers
and glide path flap operation differs, and one good landing isn't enough
to know the pitfalls, even for landings. I think everyone agrees the HP
series is a great ship to make off-field landings in the hands of a good
pilot.

I figured there was some nuance I was missing. No harm no foul. I agree
with all your points. For my part I just wanted to throw out for general
consideration that though flaps ARE different than spoilers, 'different'
doesn't necessarily strongly equate with 'bad.' Nor does 'different'
necessarily strongly equate with 'large cojones.'

Free information is always worth every cent paid for it, but (in my
flap-biased view) there seems to be more misleading/'flaps are bad'
information floating around about flaps than there is of the sort to be
found in this particular thread...which thus far contains accurate - if
necessarily incomplete - information in every post.

Just to provide a counterpoint to your scenario of avoiding the cloud in the
first place (always a good idea, if not always achieved), it's worth
pondering how ANYone comes to the decision s/he may require imminent cloud
avoidance techniques. Consider the particular case of a powerful western
U.S. cloud street. Odds are J. Pilot will be cruising along at 80+ mph and
suddenly have a "HolyCOW!' moment upon realizing cloud avoidance is
necessary. Options likely to spring to the surprised mind?: 1) course
change; 2) nosing over/adding energy; 3) adding gear drag; 4) adding
flap/spoiler drag. All will be exciting in a suddenly more thrill-filled
cockpit.

I've spoken to 2 pilots (years apart) soon after each first intentionally
opened spoilers at above-pattern speeds, one in a St'd Cirrus near 120 knots
trying to get below a finish gate in a regionals, and the other in an
Astir-CS trying to avoid being sucked into a big, wide, western cloudstreet
who had options 1, 2, & 3 prove insufficient. We laughed about things
because we were on the ground, but they were both wide-eyed recollecting the
BIG negative G event occasioned by opening spoilers at
higher-than-pattern-speeds, even though both had time to realize prior to
pulling the spoiler handle they were treading in new (for them, at the
times) territory. Playing Joe Test Pilot is always best done (IMHO) under
more controlled conditions than 'needing' to play JTP.

FWIW, I thought the St'd Cirrus pilot did by far the more foolish
thing...because he took an avoidable risk, whereas the Astir CS pilot felt
he had no other choice. Both whanged their heads on the canopy. The Astir
pilot wound up in a high-speed, gear-down, spoilers-out slip trying
desperately to stay out of the cloud street. About the time he could see he
was going to be successful avoiding the cloud, he heard a radio call to the
effect, "Glider at XXX over YYY, this is Cessna ZZZ. Are you OK?" Being at
XXX over YYY, he declined to answer (would've required a 3rd hand w/o a boom
mic), though afterwards he could appreciate a certain irony in the
situation!

Regards,
Bob W.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date: 11/10/2003