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On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 15:15:52 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote: Ed Rasimus wrote: And, as for the RWR being lit up solid for several minutes--all I can say is, "poor baby"! What was lit up solid? It was common to be pinged by EW on the tanker. Fan Song and Firecans, along with Barlocks and other radars would be painting consistently from the border to the target and back. Was it radar pings, or Activity Light, or LAUNCH, or AS (Azimuth-Sector)? I don't remember. IIRC, his point was that sneaking in under the radar was a practical impossibility; the NVN were always aware they were coming. ISTR there were also claims that the North Vietnamese fired chaff to make the TFR see 'terrain' and command a pullup, which could put them at 10,000 feet within seconds. Whether there was any independent proof of this or this is just one of those myths that the crews believed, I don't know; there were plenty of TFR auto-pullups for unknown reasons. Monsoon rain was a problem in '68, but they apparently figured that one out. The whole point of terrain masking was to hide or interfere with weapon guidance. Breaking the lock of the tracking radar by getting below the antenna depression minimum or putting something solid between the airplane and the defender. Coming in undetected was not on the table for consideration. Everyone pretty much knew we were coming and when. Simple HUMINT reports from the Thailand bases or ground observers under the refueling tracks would cover the TOT windows +/- 20 minutes or so. Knowing what the situation was and what the RWR was telling you was definitely an acquired skill--one which calmed the nerves after first encounters with real RWR indications in combat. From what I recall most of the '72 crews had BTDT in prior tours, so I don't think that was an issue. Just looked at Hobson. He reports six F-111s lost during Linebacker I/II. 28 Sept 72--Major AC and 1/Lt WSO 16 Oct --Capt AC and 1/Lt WSO 7 Nov-- Maj AC and Maj WSO 20 Nov-- Capt and Capt 18 Dec-- Lt Col and Major 22 Dec--Capt and 1/Lt So, we've got at least three first-timers and three more probable (the Captains.) Certainly at Korat in the F-105 community, the force was split 50/50 with experience and FNGs. In the F-4 side of the house we had probably 25% with previous tours and the rest were first timers (including, unbelievably, a couple of Majors with as much as 9 years experience in the F-4 and no previous combat!) Consider also that only BTDT crews who had participated in Rolling Thunder would be SAM and radar-guided defense experienced. Lots of previous tour guys had flown in S. Vietnam or during protracted bombing pauses and had never seen a real-world RWR indication. We actually had a half-dozen brand new 1/Lt arrivals both front and back cockpit, straight out of training in the F-4 going to RP VI on their first combat missions. Mike Stevens, squadron Ops Officer in the 34th went to Pack VI as a R/C/P flight lead/instructor pilot for some of the Linebacker II sorties. (That was something I flat refused to do!) My recollection was that we never had Shrikes in sufficient quantity for pre-emptive application. We didn't do it with F-100F Weasels; we didn't do it with F-105F Weasels in '66, we didn't do it with F-105G Weasels in LB I/II and I never saw it done with F-4C Weasels. I pulled Thornborough off the shelf to see if I had missed something. In discussion of the 67th deployment to Korat, starting on 25 Sept '72 (shortly before suspension of bombing N. of 20 degrees), they don't mention pre-empting. And, most of their missions would have been flown in areas of low defensive density and hence not very productive for pre-emptive firing. When LB II started, the 67th augmented the F-105G Weasels primarily at night. The mission descriptions track with my recollection of "detached support" for the night Hunter/Killer mission. F-4C Weasels separated from F-4E killer elements and roamed, mostly single-ship, engaging emitters as they were detected. But, no coordinated or preplanned pre-emptions. Which Thornborough book are you referring to, the F-4 book or the Iron Hand one? I think this info was in the (revised) second edition of the F-4 book, but am not certain; it might have been in the Iron Hand book. "Iron Hand" It would be good to define "pre-emptive firing" before going much further. My definition is firing without an emitter targetted. That is, lobbing or lofting the Shrike into an area of known defensive radar but without a specific target for the purpose of keeping an ARM airborne over the emitter and thereby keeping him shut down. Time-of-flight for a pre-empt would be on the order of 2-3 minutes maximum. Probability of detecting, tracking and engaging a radar during such a tactic would be very low and the only effect would be as a deterrent, not as a radar kill mechanism. That's the definition. If that's the definition, I categorically state that I never saw it done. Never. Not even considered in discussions of how to improve our tactics. First time I ever heard it suggested was around '74-'75 when we were going to use it (simulated) in missions against CVBG forces in the Mediterranean. (I discuss the tactic in my Air Command/Staff College paper, "Sink the Kiev" as a means of rolling back the defenses and providing suppression during an attack against a Soviet battle group.) Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org www.thundertales.blogspot.com |
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