Procedure turn required?

Lots of posters are spouting ideas, regs, AIM citations, etc. but have not
looked at the approach plate. So lets do that.

1st... What is your flight plan route? Wilma is NOT part of the approach.
It is a feeder for the airport.

2nd... If you filed to Wilma, then the airport and went lost communications
and were IFR you would have to fly to an IAF and then commence the approach.
ATC would expect you to fly to Seal Beach and fly the procedure turn.

3rd... If you are under ATC control, they would likley either vector you to
final or tell you to fly to Seal Beach and then intercept final and probably
tell you to to that at 1500 feet so you would be in the proper postion to
descend to MDA for the circle to land.



"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Yossarian" wrote in message
. 97.142...
I was using a Frasca 141 sim today with an instructor when this question
came up. Fullerton CA (KFUL) VOR-A approach. At WILMA on V64, flying
the
full approach. Do you need to turn outbound at the VOR for the procedure
turn?

Instructor says no because a Victor airway leads to the IAF. I say yes
because even though that's true, "No PT" is not listed on that feeder
route.

You'll need a true expert to answer the question with certainty.
However...

I agree with your instructor. AFAIK, there is NEVER a requirement to make
a procedure turn. The "NoPT" exists to prohibit a procedure turn, not to
tell you when you are required to make one. Obviously, if you're going
the wrong way, you need a course reversal at some point. But that's a
practical requirement, not a regulatory one.

In the case of the approach from ALBAS, not only is there clearly no need
for a procedure turn, they've even gone so far as to put the IAF way out
there. While I'm not an expert in the TERPS, I suspect that there's
something in there that stipulates when "NoPT" is used; probably any
arrival 30 degrees or less from the final approach course gets a "NoPT"
(the arrival from ALBAS just barely squeaks by). If the approach designer
had been given the latitude to put "NoPT" on any arrival where he thinks a
procedure turn is unnecessary, we'd probably see that on the arrival from
WILMA too.

I would agree that in general, it would be nice to be established on the
final approach course at the FAF. But again, I'm not aware of any
requirement for this. Assuming you can cross the FAF at the FAF (which
should never be in question), and then immediately establish yourself on
the final approach course (which should be no problem in this case), I
don't see any problem.

As far as I can tell, the procedure turn on that approach is for pilots
who are coming at the VOR from the opposite direction. For example,
someone who flew the missed approach.

Of course, lacking the "NoPT", you are of course welcome to fly the whole
procedure turn. But you're looking at 45 seconds or so just to get
established outbound parallel to the final approach course, and that's not
counting the time spent flying back to it (and then, of course, the time
for the procedure turn itself). I'm betting not many people fly the
procedure turn coming in from WILMA.

I'm a little curious as to how this question is on r.a.piloting, but not
on r.a.ifr. I've cross-posted for your benefit (and quoted your entire
post for theirs).

Pete