Bush needs to clean up his mess

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:11:33 -0700, "Leadfoot"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 11:06:15 -0700, "Leadfoot"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
m...
On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 08:48:08 -0700, "Leadfoot"
wrote:

Have you ever worked at a job where you had to clean up someone else's
mess?
Someone who was paid by the same people as you to do it themselves?

Since your point is political, can you point out any--repeat
ANY--administration that left office with nothing to clean up for the
next administration? And, who precisely determines what is a mess? Has
the economy recovered from the impact of 9/11? How is unemployment?
What about inflation and interest rates? Did Truman, Eisenhower,
Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter finish up the Soviet mess? Get
the picture?

This is a mess that if it is possible to be cleaned up it can be cleaned
up
the end of Bush's term. Either the plan that is in place can be
completed
by the Iraqi's with Bush's help by 1-19-09 or they won't be able to
accomplish it at all

Just how long were you prepared to fight in Vietnam, Ed? How many coups
did
South Vietanam have?

We were prepared to fight as long as it took, IF--repeat IF--the
give-up rather than fight crowd in the US would have stopped
distracting the politicians so that we could have won.

So we could still be there today, eh?

No, we would have been out by 1968. Review the effect on
"negotiations" of the period 18-29 December 1972 for a concrete
example.


The main point I'd like to leave you with is that in major
international relations issues the solutions are never simple and a
firm calendar for completion isn't possible.


Does it occur to you that if the Iraqi's aren't up to the task by 1-19-09
they never will be?

I reposted the above. You can't tell me that you weren't ever involved in a
project that from the outside looked doable but once you were in you
realized it was doomed for failure.

I hope we don't start hearing jokes like...

Want to buy a Iraqi AK47? Never been fired and only dropped once.




Number of coups was small during the period of US combat involvement
and those were during the last year or so when Vietnamization was
pretty much completed (late '71--'72.) Actually a case could be made
that it was precisely the withdrawal of American military
stabilization and support which led to belief that the coups could be
successful.

I think you might be thinking of Cambodia Thieu was in office until about
9
days before the communist took over. Albeit the results of the election he
won to take office looked pretty crooked to me.

I thought you were referring to 1971 when Big Minh attempted to
overthrow the government.

Right wing dictatorships are no better than communist dictatorships when you
get down to it.


What makes you doubt the election? (Seriously, it is virtually
impossible to compare a US domestic election--with its concommitant
share of doubt--and elections anywhere in the Third World, regardless
of oversight.)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_V...lic_of_Vietnam

Scroll down to "politics"





I was thinking more in terms of the Geneva Accords election we were afraid
to let take place because the communist would have probably won it in 56
and
the coups/assasinations that took place in 63-64

And, you think the postulated victory of the Viet Minh in '56 would
have been pristine? The Geneva Accords were fairly typical
international diplomatic practice of the period--providing a
US/Eurocentric overlay on a formerly colonial region with disasterous
results.

You should have watched the last two episodes of Battlestar Galactica. They
portrayed how stupid the voters could be and the lengths that those who
think the voters are stupid would go to. And in the real world I shudder to
think what will result if the countries of the Muslim world have free
elections. I don't think the results would be best for the US. Yet I still
think they should be held.

There's another episode of BSG called "Scar". It's a prettty good
perspective of life as a fighter pilot.




We used to laugh about the weekly flights of the white ICC airplane
between Saigon, Vientiane and Hanoi carrying the Indian, Canadian,
Pakistani and Swedish observers between the capitals. "You see
anything wrong?" "Nah, not me--looks good from here."


What do you think George Bush is doing when he says the next President
will
have to finish Iraq?

Sounds like an honest estimation of a major foreign policy task.

It's not cut and run. It's...

Stand up. We can only help so much before we leave.

And yes we should be committed to leave totally. Permanent bases in
Iraq
prove Al-queda's point to the average Arab/Muslim.

Where has any official policy been annunciated at any time which
indicated an intent to establish "Permanent bases in Iraq"?
Increasingly al-Queda's point has been to foment violence between
Muslims rather than against coalition forces.

They haven't announced they won't. And it's been suggested at the highest
levels to the administration that they do

They haven't announced they won't launch a mission to Venus, but I
suspect they won't. How does not announcing an intent lead you to the
conclusion that someone will? Wishful thinking?

If the Iraqi's can't stand up and fight this for themselves by January
19,
2009 then they aren't worth saving.

Sort of like all those NATO countries from 1949 until 1989?

NATO was a defense alliance against a nuclear superpower, not a
pre-emptive
war based on BULL**** that has been followed by a guerilla war. And
NATO
members stood up quite well doing their part. The jury is still out on
the
Iraqi's, 80% of who wish we would leave.

NATO was established in 1949 and if you think that Germany, Belgium,
France, Italy, Netherlands, Denmark, Greece and Turkey were in shape
militarily to defend against the Soviets it would seem that you slept
through a lot of history classes. Reconstruction and the Marshall Plan
were just beginning to show positive impacts.

Which came first, Warsaw pact or NATO? I don't think the soviets were in
any shape either. They were just as scared of us as we were of them.

Stalin aggressively developed his international nuclear capability in
the period from 1946 onward. He established and continued to operate
the COMINTERN to train and deploy leaders of Communist revolution. He
maintained a huge military capability--crude, but loads of manpower,
while we largely de-activated the WW II force.

I still remember "duck and cover" drills from second grade. Do you?

ROTFLMAO second grade for me started at Offutt AFB and ended at Grand Forks
AFB, SAC HQ and Grand Forks with its B-52 Bomb Group and 300 Minutemen silos
were numero uno as nuclear targets. Neither school district even bothered
with it






As for "80% of who(m) wish we would leave"--I've not seen any polling
data of Iraqi's that would offer those numbers.

Ok let's hear your numbers VBG


Still waiting for your numbers




Apples and oranges, Ed


Just to clarify I can see some forces staying after Bush leaves office
if
the Iraqi's have proven themselves such as close air support, SOF,
trainers. logistics and intelligence but not any regular infantry.

So, you finally make a valid point. Yep, there's going to be a
requirement for engineers, security (as in police), training, military
assistance, etc. Will there be a requirement for traditional combat
arms units? Hopefully not. But that's a couple of years downstream
isn't it?

Exactly 1-19-09 is 944 Days or 133 Weeks and 13 Days or 2 years 4
months
and 3 Weeks or as you said "a couple of years downstream isn't it?"

I'm giving Bush plenty of time to clean up his mess. Maybe you missed
that?

What I commented on was not the length of time but the assertion that
at the end of the current administration there was some sort of
obligation to leave a clean slate for the incoming group--something
which has NEVER before occurred in any presidency.

I think I'm givng him a lot more time than he really needs to be blunt

And, I think that it is impossible to define exactly how much time
will be needed for a complicated task. There can be goals, but a fixed
calendar date is impossible.

I heven't even seen a roadmap with goals yet



Hey you playing with the Windows VISTA beta yet?

I've been out of the software reviewing business for about five years
now. Amazingly I haven't had to do a hard drive reformat and full
system reload in all that time--used to be a semi-annual requirement
when I was running an average of 50 new programs a week on the PC.

I've done a couple but my computer is home built and I'm always playing with
it. I have 4 hard drives and dual boot from the motherboard. I made sure
not to do anything to mess with my primary OS WinXP MCE2005 by keeping it on
a separate hard drive unlike some fools I keep reading about I've also got
the Office beta and that I like. Office seems ready for prime time but
Vista will probably slip again. I'd say wiat at least 6 months until after
it comes out retail before the average user should buy it


I've stayed away from VISTA, but been reading eagerly about it. Should
coincide with my rising need for a new system around Jan/Feb of next
year!

Maybe if there's a Palace Cobra royalty check in the new year mail...

Your not a millionaire yet??? Or are too many cheapskates checking it out
at the library

The Vista beta is free although I would definitely keep it on a separate
hard drive from a primary OS



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com