PowerFLARM Mode S question

On 10/25/2010 1:52 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Oct 24, 6:50 pm, Mike
wrote:
On 10/24/2010 7:56 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:



On Oct 24, 7:06 pm, Mike
wrote:
On 10/24/2010 6:14 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Oct 24, 2:24 pm, Mike
wrote:
The reality is that the big short term opportunity with ADS-B is TIS-B.
If you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will be able
to see not just other ADS-B equipped aircraft, but all other Mode C / S
transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC.

Wrong.

Not unless *you* have ADS-B out.
Please read:
http://www.gliderpilot.org/FLARM-Abo...nders-And-ADSB

Now, go back and read it again, this time carefully.

How about fully reading my post? I indicated you needed an ADS-B
"transceiver", not a "receiver". I also indicated that PowerFlarm might
provide TIS-B services only if it was coupled with an ADS-B Out transmitter.

--
Mike Schumann

Oh, so you're suggesting something that DOES NOT EXIST
FOR GLIDERS ?

Navworx exists. PowerFlarm does not.

You can hook up Navworx to a variety of GPS units to graphically see
aircraft in your vicinity. You might not like the cost, power
consumption or the selection of display devices that are supported, but
it will work in a glider and it will show you the accurate position and
altitude all of the other transponder equipped aircraft in your area if
you are within range of an ADS-B ground station.

If you want to accurately and reliably see GA and jet aircraft and you
operate in an area that has ADS-B ground station coverage, an ADS-B
based solution will give you the most accurate information, but ONLY if
you are also transmitting an ADS-B out signal.

--
Mike Schumann

On Oct 24, 6:50 pm, Mike
wrote:
On 10/24/2010 7:56 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:



On Oct 24, 7:06 pm, Mike
wrote:
On 10/24/2010 6:14 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:

On Oct 24, 2:24 pm, Mike
wrote:
The reality is that the big short term opportunity with ADS-B is TIS-B.
If you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will be able
to see not just other ADS-B equipped aircraft, but all other Mode C / S
transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC.

Wrong.

Not unless *you* have ADS-B out.
Please read:
http://www.gliderpilot.org/FLARM-Abo...nders-And-ADSB

Now, go back and read it again, this time carefully.

How about fully reading my post? I indicated you needed an ADS-B
"transceiver", not a "receiver". I also indicated that PowerFlarm might
provide TIS-B services only if it was coupled with an ADS-B Out transmitter.

--
Mike Schumann

Oh, so you're suggesting something that DOES NOT EXIST
FOR GLIDERS ?

Navworx exists. PowerFlarm does not.

You can hook up Navworx to a variety of GPS units to graphically see
aircraft in your vicinity. You might not like the cost, power
consumption or the selection of display devices that are supported, but
it will work in a glider and it will show you the accurate position and
altitude all of the other transponder equipped aircraft in your area if
you are within range of an ADS-B ground station.

If you want to accurately and reliably see GA and jet aircraft and you
operate in an area that has ADS-B ground station coverage, an ADS-B
based solution will give you the most accurate information, but ONLY if
you are also transmitting an ADS-B out signal.

--
Mike Schumann

Again the devil is in the details.

Where is the STC that allows a NavWorx ADS600-B to be installed in a
certified glider to comply with the new FAA STC requirements announced
this August? (yes an experiential glider can get away without this).
The NavWorx ADS600-B transceiver is TSO as a UAT transceiver but its
built in GPS source does not meet the TSO-C145/C146 WAAS GPS
requirements to drive ADS-B data-out for the 2020 carriage mandate.
The NavWorx products were intended to have one of these higher end GPS
systems connected to it to meet the full 2020 carriage mandates for
powered aircraft but be usable now without that (which could easily
double or more their cost today and increase power consumption). And
that certainly seemed a good idea (and still doable for experimental
aircraft) but it looks like the FAA may have other ideas for certified
aircraft... since the FAA recently instituted this new STC requirement
it is not clear to me whether the FAA has any intention of allowing
STC approval for an install that does not meet the 2020 carriage
mandate requirements. And even if gliders were not otherwise required
to meet those GPS requirements. I've just about given up trying to
navigate this FAA mess, but then I'm not pushing people to adopt ADS-B
data-out now -- but Mike you are so maybe you can explain this actual
situation here. Will the FAA allow a STC to be developed for install
in a glider with a non-TSO-C145/C146 WAAS GPS? And who is funding the
development of that STC for installation of a NavWorx ADS600-B UAT in
a certified glider? Which gliders? Or any idea when the FAA plans to
drop the STC requirement and allow field approval/337 installs?

TIS-B will likely work well where there will be good GBT (ADS-B base
station) and radar coverage and with classic GA style aircraft
separation. But there won't be TIS-B coverage in many critical areas
such as many GA airport traffic patterns and other areas where I worry
about GA traffic - again that's not an overall slight on TIS-B but
pilots need to look at this coverage where they fly and be aware as
well when the TIS-B support is rolling out for their en-route (pretty
soon for most people) and approach/TRACON radar coverage (now for a
very few, over the next few years for most).

If you just fly a glider like a GA aircraft and never fly close to
other glider etc. then things are simpler, but most of us end up
flying in ways that cause some specific traffic display/threat warning
challenges. Again this UAT solution relies on a third party display/
warning system that processes data from the UAT transceiver. That
system likely needs to be optimized/designed for the type of flying
gliders do, and the applies to TIS-B data as well. To see why...
consider the case of flying within a short distance of other gliders
who are transponder equipped. This is not necessarily in the same
thermal, it could be a fraction of a mile or so away. But there is
more uncertainty with a SSR derived location data pumped through TIS-B
than there is with a GPS location based ADS-B direct or ADS-R (relay)
signal. Just how the traffic display/threat warning system handles
that situation might be critical but its may be something that only
somebody designing a system for gliders will worry about. In many
cases when a TIS-B based systems sees your glider buddy getting close
the best it may be be able to do is just throw up it hands and say
"threat nearby at altitude xxxx" it won't be able to give direction
data. And you don't want it to keep false warning you about your
glider buddies so you want some way to suppress that warning unless
they get really close (hopefully with an altitude and range margins
you can set) and an easy way to suppress recurring warnings and you
want those settings separate for TIS-B than ADS-B direct/ADS-R. The
devil again, is in the details. Who is going to get this right for UAT
traffic display/threat warning for a glider cockpit?

I believe that TIS-B is a useful add-on service for some GA folks who
can afford it and fly in the right areas. I'm more dubious that is is
financially justified in gliders now. This stuff may be interesting to
pilots if they can manage to legally install a UAT transceiver and
third party display/processor system, afford the thousands of dollars
purchase and install cost (could be over $5k or more with TSO GPS and
all the STC driven costs?), can power the system (over 1 amp with
display and TSO complaint GPS) and they need to check out that traffic
display/threat processing system indeed will meet the needs of their
glider cockpit/flying environment.

Mike if these things are here now and do TIS-B so well to solve the GA
traffic concerns you have mentioned so the obvious question is have
you purchased a NavWorx ADS600-Receiver? How have you legally
installed it in your glider? What traffic/display hardware are you
using and how well does it handle things like TIS-B when flying near
and thermalling with transponder equipped gliders or other UAT
equipped gliders? Seems like a research project not a product ready to
sell (to the glider market) to me.

Darryl

From what I see on the Navworx web site, the ADS600-B is NOT TSO'd,
even though it is FCC approved. I'm don't claim to be an expert on FAA
issues regarding installation of equipment in aircraft, so I have no
idea what that means.

I suspect that the current non TSO'd Navworx box will not meet the 2020
ADS-B rule. I suspect that you could install it in a certified glider
as a portable device, like you would a Garmin 496, without any trouble
(FAA trouble that is). However, the unit obviously doesn't look like it
was designed for this. I don't know what the ramifications are of a
permanent install.

You are certainly correct that installation of this kind of equipment in
a glider (or any aircraft), at this stage of the product / regulatory
life cycle should be treated as a research project. The same applies to
PowerFlarm when it initially starts shipping.

--
Mike Schumann