What First Glider to own?

When I get the L plates off my Kestrel 19 I will be able to comment.
(Only had her for a year now) I would second the comment about not using
one as a first glider. While everything in the cockpit is logical and
all that, it is a busy place. Also - she is an open class glider so you
have to be a lot further ahead of the glider at all times.

By contrast - my very early Std Cirrus is a honey to fly as long as you
keep away from the edges of the envelope. Even if you go outside those -
She spins easily and predictably. Recovers just as easily and
predictably. Don't even think about it in the Kestrel. Workload flying
the Kestrel is lower on XC - because the L/D is so much better - but
landing and takeoff phases require more.

In my opinion - a 15m un-flapped glass glider is the best place to
start. Newer is better than older because the LS8 and Discus 2 etc. have
the benefit of 30 years of experience in controllability etc. Very nice
to have - but not essential.

Bruce

On 2010/12/08 1:17 PM, Colin Roney wrote:
The Kestrel 19 is not a glider for the inexperienced.
It has a busy cockpit and demanding flight envelope to get the glider
correctly configured for the various flight phases.
It is not glider that can be rushed in the circuit and landing phases.
The glider needs space and time and requires the pilot to keep their
brains well ahead of the game.
Speak to some of the `old`Kestrel boys and they will put you straight!
Colin








At 08:41 08 December 2010, Mike wrote:
On Dec 7, 9:50=A0pm, Dave Lawley wrote:
I have been considering this same subject myself.

A Libelle is a good option if you can stand the horrible ugliness of
the
things, and what is a fairly tight cockpit, regardless of some others
statements.

Ditto club Libelle.

H301 Hornet is good, with better performance, water ballst (100L) and
muc=
h
more acceptable looks than a Libelle.

ASW15 is pretty cool but 15B is a better option, has bigger cockpit
length, and takes a small ammount of water ballast (50L). A nose hook
is
=
a
big plus for these as thay have an offset compromise hook as standard.

Astirs are ghastly in terms of control force/responsiveness,
but strongly built, quite reliable and easy to fly.

LS1 series excellent for the smaller pilot.

STD Cirrus, later models with extra washout are better for low hours
pilots, but stick free elevator stability is poor. On one occasion a
pilo=
t
who undid his straps to retrive a dropped object was thrown out of the
glider thru the canopy when he hit a bump and it went inverted.
Luckily
h=
e
was wearing a chute(Not his normal practice) One literally cant take
ones
hand off the stick!

Std Jantar1 =A0pretty good all round.

Ditto for PIK20b/d if you dont mind flaps, big cockpit.

If you can go a bit more then without a doubt an LS4 is the nicest I
have
flown. Whilst the performance is slighly less tha a Discus the feel
for
the air is much better, and the cockpit much larger than even a DIscus
B.

I have come to the conclusion that for me a Kestrel H401 is the best
option, has equal performance to Discus, and falls on the edge of the
price range. Has flaps and a somewhat busy but large cockpit layout.
=A0E=
asy
to fly.

I would avoid the following like the plague.

Phoebus, all models spins readily undercarriage failiures common.

Diamant, all models. C of G hook only all moving tail, tiny cockpit,
uglier than even Libelle.

Good luck and regards

Dave Lawley

At 18:51 06 December 2010, Sparkorama wrote:





Hagbard Celine;756949 Wrote:
That's a nice and diverse fleet you have there! As to getting your
own
glider, in that price range you can look at several older glass
standard class ships. In this group I include:
Schempp-Hirth Standard Cirrus
Schleicher ASW-15 / ASW-15B
Glasflugel 201 / 201B Standard Libelle
Rolladen-Schneider LS-1C / LS-1D
SZD Standard Jantar 1

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, to me none of the
weaknesses would be deal breakers. If you look at Paul Bickles
"Polars
Of Eight" and Richard Johnsons flight test evaluations you'll
find
that they all have very (very) similar performance. At this point
the
variation in the condition of an individual glider would probably
account for a greater performance difference than any that might be
inherent in the design.

You might also find an LS-1F or DG-100 in this price range. If
you're
alright with the heavier rigging an Open Cirrus would be an option
too. I don't know enough about the Phoebus B and C to offer any
advice
on their flying qualities and parts support. Maybe some owners can
weigh in? A Grob 102 Astir CS or CS-77 would probably fall into
this
price range too. The Grobs are a bit sluggish in terms of control
response and they are more difficult to rig than they need to be (a
Libelle type rigging tool would make them much easier to assemble)
but
they are roomy and have decent performance. I've heard differing
experiences when it comes to parts support. We needed a new rudder
for
our club's single Grob and some parts for the airbrake system a
few
years ago and I got them from Linder with no trouble but I've also
talked to people who haven't been as lucky.

The Soaring Magazine Sailplane Directory issue has a summary by
Derek
Piggott of these gliders and many others that could be helpful. He
offers a more in-depth evaluation of a number of gliders in
"Gliding
Safety" if you can find a copy.

If you can find any obliging owners, try them on for size. Your
height, weight and leg/torso proportions will probably rule some of
them out for you. (example: I had enough headroom and fit alright
lengthwise in the Libelle but still found it lacked shoulder room
and
felt too cramped on the other hand I was comfortable in my clubs
Standard Jantar but I was one of the few who was, many said it
didn't
seem to be designed for human beings!)

As I've owned an ASW-15B for five years I can give you some more
detailed information on that particular glider: roomier than a
Libelle
but a bit more cramped than the L-33, very docile at low speeds and
not inclined to spin, quite powerful airbrakes, light ailerons
(both
in terms of aerodynamic loads and system friction), a ridiculous
amount of rudder authority, although the gear handle is on the same
side as the airbrake handle there is little chance of confusing one
for the other because they are widely separated (when you look
inside
a 15 it's pretty obvious it was designed as a fixed gear as per
the
standard class regs of the time and then changed over to
retractable
as an afterthought), the long one-piece removable canopy is a bit
of
a
pain as you really need someone to help close it for you before
flight, it has an all-flying tail but it was properly designed so
it
isn't twitchy at all, lastly I've found that when I've needed
any
parts, TN's or general advice John Murry at Eastern Sailplane has
been
extremely helpful. It's also pretty easy to rig. I've shared the
field
with two Libelle owners and I usually get the 15 together and ready
to
fly quicker than they do...

Since you mentioned the IS-29 I was wondering if you were
considering
getting a metal ship and tying it down outside? If I was in this
situation I would seriously consider the Schweizer 1-35 myself.

I was only considering the IS-29 since there is one for sale and
originally I was thinking that a metal ship would be easier to
maintain
and somewhat bulletproof. As of now, I'm not sure if those are
correct
assumptions.

--
Sparkorama- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have heard some horror stories about the Phoebus, from people that
had heard stories, but never flown one. Truth is the Phoebus is a
decent first sailplane for a private pilot with some Grob experience
and average skills.

My Phoebus C was one of the most docile sailplanes I have ever flown
and had not one bad quality. Everyone I know that has actually flown a
Phoebus (A,B, or C), including and usually being low time pilots,
report the same. If one is concerned, start with the CG in a forward
position.

The landing gear is not a problem. My understanding is that it was
made to be sacrificial when very rough landings were made, protecting
the fus from major damage.

For more Phoebus info: http://phoebus.vassel.com/site_page_2511/.

Mike



--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57