USA 2010 Competition Rules Committee Minutes Posted

On Dec 16, 2:58*am, Tom Kelley wrote:
On Dec 15, 11:16*pm, T8 wrote:





On Dec 15, 10:44*pm, Tom Kelley wrote:

On Dec 15, 6:55*pm, wrote:

On Dec 15, 4:46*pm, Andy wrote:

I thought the "start anywhere" rule was going to revert back to the
original version by eliminating the "front half" of the cylinder
provision that was added for 2010. *What happened?

Also, under advanced handicap class rules that allow water will the
handicaps vary with the ballasted weight or just use the unballasted
weights for setting handicaps?

9B

Handicap would be based on published handicap with no weight
adjustment. No extra work for the scorer.
UH

The 18 Meter Antares empty is 884 lbs. My ASG 29/18 Meter is 606.
Thats a fact and mine is most likely the lightest in the USA on its
emprty weight. Now, Dave and I were tied down by each other in
Waynesville, Ohio at the 2010 18 Meter Nationals. His 18 Meter Antares
has a wing area of 128.1 sq. feet. Mine is 113 sq. feet. Now, Dave
shared that without water his wing loading was over 9.2 lbs per sq.
ft. DRY.
*OK, math time, 128.1 sq. feet times 9.2 gives a gross weight of 1178
lbs.
Now I can ballast to 1178 lbs ( heavest motorglider weight) which
gives me a wing loading of 10.429 lbs a sq. ft. (note...Dry I am 7.7
lbs sq ft/18 meter). *A V2CX has 118 sq. ft. and they will be 9.98 lbs
sq ft. *Dave Nadler could not be happy on this note, the V2cx guys and
girls might not be, *BUT I am very happy and just wanted to express my
thanks for this wondeful Christmas present.

Going to be great fun watching you 18m guys sort this one out.
Popcorn, anyone?

-Evan Ludeman / T8- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Pop alot of corn Evan. Here's a good story.
Last year at the 2010 Seniors, John Good, our CD, showed up with new
scales. We were weighed on different days, outside and with different
conditions, needless to say. Our handicaps were adjusted down to the
10 thousands. Hey, you do want fair to be fair, right to be right, and
no advantage to any of us old folks.
Remember, next time you read the rules, find the rules pertaining to
the Seniors.
Now, put some more butter on that corn, cause *heres your Christmas
story. On the second day, I *put the weight of 16 pounds in my tail,
plus I put water in my tail tank *to move my CG way back where me
likes it, as I am now told I am going to be weighted and no changes
after the weighing. *This changed my weight from the declared 840 pds.
to 866 pds. My ASG 29 was in 15 Meter config. Ok, now they adjusted my
handicap on the first day to this new weight, which I tried to
explain, but to no avail.
Ok, whatever, but thats NOT all the Christmas story. Please, read on.
DB flew his ASG 29 in the 15 Meter config. They weighed him in the
wind, he and his glider weighed 861 pds. Ok, whats 5 pds between ships
you say. Nothing at all. BUT wait, *DB has a body weight of 175 pds
and yep, my body weight is 242 pds. and yet our total weights were
within 5 pounds. Oh, my you say, what the........za zoom ..........His
handicap was adjusted to what mine was. Is something wrong here? Are
we trying to be to perfect in a non perfect world?

Andy, *9B, you can't even get to 1178 lbs, as you, my friend, have an
ASW 27 which has a max. weight of 1102 lbs.............. Check the
wing on the ASH 31, its 128 sq. ft. and look at the ASH 26E, its 125
sq. ft. Look at their weights as they are motorgliders.

As I do think this new rule will never be used, I brought this up to
show the lengths we go to, at some contests, to adjust wing loadings
and yet the outcome isn't always justified or wanted. Just old school
thinking I guess, never meant any harm or foul yet are we trying to be
to "perfect".

Hank and the guys really work hard to try and make it fair and equal
to all. With the years they have put in, its better now than it has
ever been.

Many thanks to them all.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just to make as clear as mud. Let's not mix up 2 different changes we
are looking at.
First is what we hope is a fairness adjustment to use limited ballast
instead of no ballast on days that currently would be declared "dry"
days due to safety concerns. Practical example would be to ballast
ASG-29s to same weight as Ventus 2CT so motorgliders with 60 or so lb
of fixed ballast don't have an "unfair" advantage. Yep- the weight set
likely would not be as high as an Antares, so not perfect, but better.
Wing areas are close enough so loadings are not all that different.
This is for a single class, not mixed class, and probably
realistically Nationals. Use of one weight makes it easier to do on
short notice.
Second is the handicapped mixed class with possibly Dtd, 15m, 18m all
in a class with handicaps from Sports list. This could be a dry class,
or it could be ballasted with no change in handicap for ballast. There
is no intent to try to go to common weight in this option.
And yes , weighing has it's problems too. I suspect most contest
organizers will either go dry or wet with no restriction, but we are
providing the option. This is why I suspect the added hassle of
limited ballast will only be used in nationals.
Also note the option to "leever B" and do just as we do now is there.
Not everything we try stays long term. That is why the mixed classes
is an experiment before it becomes permanent in the rules.
Thanks for sharing ideas guys.
UH RC Chair