Is there a place for Traditional CAS in the 21st century?

"Pat Carpenter" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 23:44:33 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Pat Carpenter" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 20:15:03 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Pat Carpenter" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 12:49:55 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Pat Carpenter" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 01:11:01 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Pat Carpenter" wrote in
message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 20:26:27 -0800, Henry J Cobb

wrote:

John R Weiss wrote:
If anything, remote-controlled CAS platforms will increase
blue-on-blue, and
they will likely be MORE vulnerable to defenses.

So when will we see a program to train A-10 pilots about the
shapes
of
armored vehicles operated by the United States military?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/10/02/spr...friendly.fire/

-HJC
Please include UK Warrior vehicles in that training.

Before you get too smug, recall who clanged that Challenger
around
Basra
during the latest visit to the area...twasn't the Yanks, and
twasn't
the
Iraqis.

Brooks


Pat Carpenter

Agreed we did but the A-10's mangaged it in both GFI and GFII.

Well, heck, when it is your side that is providing the bulk of the
toys
and
the men to operate them, you can expect that the greater percentage
of
untoward incidents will also be in their pocket. Now, can you
enlighten
us

So on that logic then you are saying that you were providing the
majority of the allied targets. So why weren't the Brit's, Canadians
etc. killing large numbers of American participants?

Uhmmm...how many Canadians did you see on the ground (or in the air) during
this last Gulf event? Or for that matter during the first one? How many RAF
sorties were dedicated to CAS during ODS, and how many CAS sorties did they
fly for US forces during this latest fight? YOUR logic appears to be the
flawed item here. Again, why do you on the one hand claim that you have no
beef with the US, yet on the other hand come out with this kind of nonsense
(and a few messages late, too)?


as to just how a RN *AEW* helo (of all things--one would imagine
that
such
aircraft are generally better informed about their surrounding
traffic
conditions than most) managed to collide with *another* AEW helo
(and
in
the
process killed a USN officer on exchange duty)?

As I said earlier, in war "**** happens". Even in the UK forces...

Brooks

Pat Carpenter

Probably the same way as the Patriot shot down two allied aircraft
before a brave F16 pilot smoked the *******. Trouble is too many
systems are treated like toys and not lethal weapons.

What no excuse for the Patriot then?

Excuses? We don' need no stinkin' 'scuses... Like I said, **** happens.

Sorry but **** doesn't just happen, it is normally caused by a string
of events ( try going on an accident investigation course). One should
never just accept it but try to stop it ever happening again.

LOL! Now where did I say that we should stop trying to prevent fratricide
incidents? H'mmm? FYI, there is a big difference between realizing that
fratricide incidents will occur during major combat operations (and
sometimes even during training events), and adopting a the-hell-with-it
attitude. Excuses are not worth much; you go back and figure out what went
wrong, and try to prevent it from happening again in the future. That is the
correct approach. Your approach, where you just wring your hands and whine
about US incidents while desperately trying to ignore those incidents
attributed to your own forces is rather meaningless.


From


http://www.newscientist.com/hottopic...993575&sub=Sec
u
rity%20and%20Defence :

""History shows that fratricide is an unavoidable feature of warfare,"
admits the National Audit Office, Britain's public spending watchdog,
in
a
2002 report on the MoD's attempts to improve combat identification."

Treated like "toys" huh? From that statement one can assume you have
little
first-hand experience with a profession at arms.


I have been on the close recieving end of some of your modern "toys"
twice in the last decade and a half, have you?

Where and when? In my case was lucky enough to never experience the
intentional efforts of someone trying to kill me--the closest I have come
was having to skidaddle out of a range area when M110 8" guns started
shooting over our head into the nearby impact area, and having to go from
chest-defilade in the commander's hatch of a M113A1 to vision block use
lickity-split when the ignoramus gunner in the M60A3 tooling along on my
right decided it was a good time to enage the pop-up Hind target on my left
during a LFX phase at NTC (the observer controller caught that one and
"killed" the tank with a MILES "God Gun" so he could tear the TC a new
rear-opening). Been around TOW's that did the boost-without-sustainer dance
across the desert floor, and a bit too close for comfort during a couple of
explosives detonations. Was on the training range when another M60A3
sprinkled a CAV Troops M113 with some long range MG fire and was lasing in
preparation for pumping a training APDS round into it when the radio calls
got the TC's attention and a rather nasty situation was narrowly avoided.
Performed range clearance ops with EOD once, but that was not particularly
dangerous as long as you avoided the odd 40mm AGL "silver easter egg" we
came across. saw a lot of friendlies get waxed during corps WFX in
Germany--luckily they were reall just electrons scurrying around in the
simulation database (though the officer responsible, a good friend and at
the time working for me, took it pretty hard, putting "paid" to any idea you
may have that we don't really care about frat incidents).


You called them toys, and when you start calling them toys you start
treating them like toys.

Not really. You are rather clueless regarding modern weapons, eh?

I've targeted them, fired them and nearly been killed by them, hence I
think the reverse may be more the case.

Odd then that you have this one-sided view of fratricide as being a purely
US inspired event.



As to the RN choppers, they both had their radomes stowed and were
relying on shipboard radar control.

Gee, and not a single Yank around to take responsibility for the act
(unless
you were planning on blaming the one who was killed...?

I don't remember blaming any Americans in that case, correct me if I'm
wrong.

Actually, from the beginning you have taken a rather singleminded
approach
to pointing out the US related incidents. When it was merely pointed out
to
you that fratricide events have been common to both our respective
forces,
you wanted to start tossing out more allegations of US responsibility.
Hate
to tell you this, but fratricide is a factor of war; we try to control it
as
best we can, but it *will* continue to rear its ugly little head...even
within HM forces.

Please re-read the start of my contribution and you will see than I
just added to an American's request that A-10's recieve better ID
training.

Ever flown at low altitude and tried to pick out and identify *known*
targets? Having only done so from the comparitively slow platforms like the
UH-1 and CH-47, I can tell you that it is not all that easy to do. That you
apparently think it should be is telling. Now, oddly you find the A-10
community so needful of this additional training that you not only had to
chime in with what you note above, but when it was pointed out that
fratricide events were all too common to your own forces as well (not
instead of) as our own, you had to start lunging out with more "its the US
that does it" crap. Nobody has denied the US forces have indeed accounted
for our share of frat incidents, but if vehicle ID is your beef, then I
suggest that starting with your own freakin' Challenger crews might be a
better place to *start* that additional training, it being a bit easier to
make a good ID from a tank sitting still than it is from an A-10 flying
overhead (even at its less-than-stellar speed).


To quote from a WWII saying :-
"When the Luftwaffe bombed the Allies ducked, when the RAF bombed
the
Germans ducked but when the Americans bombed every f**ker ducked"

Regarding Operation Tractable (Falaise Gap):

"Bomber Command carried out this operation without American
involvement,
but
a large number of bombers, many ironically from 6 Group of the Royal
Canadian Air Force, bombed short."


"The American air force bombed the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division as
they were in a staging area ready to attack the enemy"

We sure did, a bit earlier; we also hammered our own 30th Inf Division
not
once, but twice during the COBRA effort. Malmedy got bombed not once but
twice by both B-24's and B-26's. And as we see from the above, so did
you.
See what I mean about "**** happens" being applicable to everyone, not
just
we 'mercans?

Brooks


"
Those short bombs caused casualties. Like I said, **** happens, even
when
you Brits are the ones doing the dealing. George Washington noted a
Brit-on-Brit fratricide incident that occured during the French and
Indian
War, when the detachment he was commanding came within sight of
another
British element and both sides opened fire on each other. Maybe you
think
Washington bears the sole burden for that event, too?


I think that maybe that you are still living in those far off days.
"**** happens" won't cut it any more in this day and age, if you
really believe that then please stay away from any thing more lethal
than a pocket knife.

"**** happens" is quite adequate in conveying the fact that fratricide
events ARE a part of combat, despite the shrill whining of you and the
general media. Even your OWN forces recognize that (see that quote from your
own MoD). That does not imply that we do not, or should not, try to minimize
them.

Brooks



Brooks


Pat Carpenter

Pat Carpenter

Pat Carpenter