ADSB panel display

If you fly anywhere near other gliders then a simple proximity alarm
is going to get pretty annoying and be pretty useless. If you fly near
GA then ADSB is going to become essential. This is true of the US,
the UK, and probably EU. If you fly in a glider with finite battery
then an ADSB transceiver makes a whole lot more sense than a
transponder.

Regulation will need to catch-up, and the product set needs to
evolve. Flarm and UAVionix are working together. What they need is
to hear from gliderpilots about what solutions will work for us.
Otherwise all they will design for is GA.

My view is we want a combined Powerflarm / ADSB OEM module
that can slot into the native gliding navigation systems. With
software configurability to deal with the regional legalities of doing
this in the short term.


At 23:52 11 October 2018, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:47:12 PM UTC-7, Darryl
Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:30:05 AM UTC-7, Alastair
Lyas wrote:
Might be worth waiting for products combining both ADSB
and=20
Flarm?
=20
The uAvionix SkyEcho 2 is innovative in ways, but to me it has
lots of
li=
mitations and is just not that interesting for the USA glider market
at
lea=
st, which is why I've not mentioned it before on r.a.s. But here
goes...
=20
I always expect there is interesting stuff coming, but folks do
need to
=
be a little careful what they might decide to wait for. Well over a
decade
=
ago some folks in the Minden area were waiting for mythical UAT
devices
tha=
t never happened, lots of handwaving not grounded in reality, and
in some
c=
ases owners unfortunately were putting off transponder adoption
because of
=
that. Let's not repeat anything like that again. And for the SkyEcho
2 we
d=
on't need to wait to actually look at what this device does or does
not do
=
since documentation has been available for a while. And much of
my
comments=
below come from just reading that documentation... but OK, with
a pretty
g=
ood understanding of the underlying technology.
=20
The SkyEcho 2 does not include a FLARM transceiver, so in the
USA today
y=
ou would be adding a PowerFLARM to it via the FLARMBridge
option to get
FLA=
RM capability. That immediately makes it uninteresting to lots of
glider
ow=
ners. According to the documentation the combined devices do
*not* take
ADS=
-B traffic and output that on a FLARM serial protocol link so the
usual
tra=
ffic displays used in a glider can see them... it seems to only works
the
o=
ther way and takes FLARM traffic and adds it to what is being sent
over
GLD=
-90 protocol to GA EFBs etc. The reverse of what most glider pilots
want
in=
a cockpit (and what PowerFLARM does today for 1090ES Direct
traffic). And
=
I'll bet it converts PowerFLARMs more useful traffic warnings say
when
ther=
malling with other gliders into ADS-B warnings going off all the
time
nons=
ense. And given how the FLARM ICD (serial protocol) and GLD-90
works I
doub=
t there is any sane way not to have to do that. But OK, it is what it
is,
a=
nd very clearly this product is *not* aimed at gliders.
=20
I'm not sure uAvionix have promised USA FCC approval for that
device
yet.=
I expect they are likely to. It's not FCC approved today so can't
even be
=
advertised in the USA... which may well be why there is nothing
mentioned
o=
n their USA website or why they don't want to irritate the FCC by
even
talk=
ing about it. Having been to the FCC approval mosh pit (I was
going to
cal=
l it a dance :-)) several times before uAvionix should know very
well
what=
they are doing with FCC approval.
=20
Their launch for the product was very UK centric, which was
pretty
intere=
sting given how far behind overall ADS-B adoption is in Europe vs.
the
USA,=
they seem to be hoping to move that needle, ride on UK interest
in TABS
an=
d FIS-B trials and combining some FLARM capability. So quite a
intersting
k=
itchen sink of a product for those uses and very interesting that
uAvionix
=
are so growth oriented they are lookin at trying to seed that
market.
=20
So then you want to ask if you need an actual PowerFLARM
device to
conne=
ct to the SkyEcho 2 to do FLARM then what else does the SkyEcho
2
provide,=
and importantly is it a replacement for a transponder?
=20
Importantly the SkyEcho 2 *not* a full transponder but does
implement
TAB=
S/TSO-C199 so should provide compatibility with TCAS which is
obviously
imp=
ortant. I'd love to see one working. ATC will likely not see that
device
ho=
wever and that's going to be an issue in many places near busy
ATC areas.
=
ATC *does* sees Trig transponders running as TABS devices, as
they are
full=
transponders underneath the TABS 1090ES Out part. The ATC
visibility part
=
is a large concern for me, especially around places like the Minden
area
wh=
ich this thread started with. Without ATC visibility I would not
recommend
=
that device for use in that area. I'd love to eventually get my
hands on
on=
e to confirm and to talk about it with the friendly NOCAL TRACON
tech
folks=
who cover the Reno area.
=20
You also can't install this (or any other TABS) device in an
aircraft
wit=
h an existing Mode C or Mode S transponder.... so can't get
visibility to
A=
TC that way. I can't imagine any glider owner with a transponder
in their
g=
lider who would want to pull it out and replace it with a SkyEcho 2
if
tha=
t meant losing visibility to ATC... a large part of why they installed
the
=
transponder to start with.
=20
The SkyEcho 2 also won't meet FAA 2020 ADS-B Out
requirements, and
althou=
gh gliders are partially exempt, we still have folks who want to say
overfl=
y Class C airspace (but below 10,000').
=20
It's a little confusing in some many ways the SkyEcho seems
more
targeted=
at UAVs (or maybe ultralights) but things like UAT In/FIS-B is
more a GA
f=
eature, so it sure is an intersting product to follow for geeks like
me,
b=
ut kind of wedged into a space between others products, especially
with
ful=
l Mode S/1090ES Out transponders on one side. We'll see....
=20
Other products with combined ADS-B and FLARM capabilities...
=20
PowerFLARM today does 1090ES In (Direct only, no ADS-R and
TIS-B) and
FLA=
RM. (effectively all PowerFLARM sold in the USA have the 1090ES
In
option).=
=20
=20
LXNav PowerMouse is coming, apparently undergoing FCC
approval, with
its=
ADS-B In option it does 1090ES In (but unlike PowerFLARM it
*does* ADS-R
=
and hopefully TIS-B) and FLARM. (hopefully LXNav will be smart
here and
the=
PowerMouse sold in the USA will all have 1090ES In option).
=20
Other vendors like AirAvionic have new FLARM products with
1090ES In
capa=
bilities coming, I wish they would start describing those product
specs
and=
capabilities more clearly and ideally clarifying their plans for the
USA
m=
arket. (their ATD57 display is still great however if anybody wants
a
dedic=
ated FLARM display).
=20
---
=20
Alastair I assume you are in the UK? or elsewhere in Europe. I'm
you not
=
sure why you care about FLARM and the USA with a LXNav 9070,
but if you
re=
ally want to operate in the USA hopefully you have a standard
PowerFLARM
ex=
ternal box (i.e. a model with FCC approval) connected to the 9070.

You are a stud!

J