New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 10:25:47 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
From AOPA: New MOAs proposed in areas we use heavily during the soaring season.
The high area extends from 13500 to 18000 from the Sierra crest out east past Mt Patterson.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...m_medium=email

Deadline for comments October 18.

This area is a bit of an FAA radar coverage black hole. Looking at the FAA Google Earth ADS-B and radar/SSR coverage map (https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace) there are significant radar coverage gaps up until somewhere between 5,000' and 10,000' AGL (not MSL). FAA radar coverage in that area is likely the approach radar at Reno airport, and the area radar out of Mount Tam/Mill Valley way on the other side of California, the FAA may still tie into the Fallon NAS radar... and if so the implication of less than great coverage in that area may be concerning... it may mean that military controllers don't have great radar coverage either.

I'd hope PASCO and/or the pilot organizations out of Minden, Truckee etc. would be able to track down what military control facility is responsible for watching this airspace, and what radar/SSR coverage they actually have. Is that Fallon RATCF, even if they don't have "control" over it are they watching for MOA activity? That seems pretty useful to understand in making an informed response.

One other question is what are/will be the actual operations procedures for transponder and/or ADS-B Out equipped military aircraft. I would not just assume they will necessarily turn off that equipment, and one good ask may be that they don't, that would be something great to ask folks and to explain that many gliders flying in that area are equipped with 1090ES In via PowerFLARM.

---

I'll be talking about ADS-B and Flarm at the PASCO annual meeting on the November 9th. Happy to help out then or otherwise with any of the more technical radar or ADS-B stuff that might help here.

I doubt anybody has much chance of changing the proposed MOA designation, the USMC has to support/use the current mountain training facilities there. It may be more useful to focus on collaboration and joint education with the military.

On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 3:43:03 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 5:46:19 AM UTC-7, Mike N. wrote:
I believe that military aircraft while flying without ADS-B out, for simulated intercepts for example. They would very likely be flying with ADS-B in to display targets.

I have no proof of the above, just kind of makes sense.

Why would you *assume* anything? Especially things that affect safety.

Lets start with how many US marine or other military aircraft flying in this MOA might be equipped with ADS-B In at all? That list is likely to be pretty short, maybe very short: I am not aware of *any* military aircraft that are ADS-B In equipped. They might exist, might be planned for but I'm not aware of any and have not seen any equipage plans for that amongst the considerable discussion of military ADS-B Out equipage. If anybody has any more information I'd love to hear it.

Avionics systems in military aircraft, airliners and corporate jets etc. are very complex and highly integrated. You can't just plug in an ADS-B In or Out system. Integrating ADS-B In with the tactical radar and IFF systems in military fighter aircraft is likely to be very complex, the latest (Block III) Super Hornets as an example (since the FA-18 was mentioned as operating in this MOA) don't include ADS-B In AFAIK. It may be less complex to integrate 1090ES In for military aircraft equipped with civilian derived TCAS II like some military transports.

BTW by means of an example, very few airliners that have 1090ES Out also have 1090ES In or UAT In. I'm watching the capability codes being transmitted by 1090ES Out equipped airline traffic in the San Francisco Bay Area (those codes describe their ADS-B In capability), almost none of the 1090ES Out equipped airliners have ADS-B In... but they all have TCAS, which will see and help avoid transponder equipped aircraft.

I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.

The most danger comes with planes flying at very low altitudes like crop dusters. This puts them right in the line of fire of fighters doing low altitude training. There has been a mid-air between a crop duster and an A6 (the crop duster pilot survived - barely). One fmr military pilot recently told me he did 200 ft recon flights in a Mohawk while IFR - that's right, IFR.

Tom

On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

....As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

It's been a very long time, but in my day it was routine to "strangle
parrot" or squawk standby to make it more difficult for GCI (Ground
Controlled Intercept) controllers to find the "bad guy" and vector the
interceptors to target.Â* I don't think it would be any different today.Â*
Do you really think the bad guys will be squawking and running their
ADS-B transmitters during a fight?Â* That wouldn't make for very good
training.

On 10/6/2019 5:57 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 10:25:47 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
From AOPA: New MOAs proposed in areas we use heavily during the soaring season.
The high area extends from 13500 to 18000 from the Sierra crest out east past Mt Patterson.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...m_medium=email

Deadline for comments October 18.
This area is a bit of an FAA radar coverage black hole. Looking at the FAA Google Earth ADS-B and radar/SSR coverage map (https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace) there are significant radar coverage gaps up until somewhere between 5,000' and 10,000' AGL (not MSL). FAA radar coverage in that area is likely the approach radar at Reno airport, and the area radar out of Mount Tam/Mill Valley way on the other side of California, the FAA may still tie into the Fallon NAS radar... and if so the implication of less than great coverage in that area may be concerning... it may mean that military controllers don't have great radar coverage either.

I'd hope PASCO and/or the pilot organizations out of Minden, Truckee etc. would be able to track down what military control facility is responsible for watching this airspace, and what radar/SSR coverage they actually have. Is that Fallon RATCF, even if they don't have "control" over it are they watching for MOA activity? That seems pretty useful to understand in making an informed response.

One other question is what are/will be the actual operations procedures for transponder and/or ADS-B Out equipped military aircraft. I would not just assume they will necessarily turn off that equipment, and one good ask may be that they don't, that would be something great to ask folks and to explain that many gliders flying in that area are equipped with 1090ES In via PowerFLARM.

---

I'll be talking about ADS-B and Flarm at the PASCO annual meeting on the November 9th. Happy to help out then or otherwise with any of the more technical radar or ADS-B stuff that might help here.

I doubt anybody has much chance of changing the proposed MOA designation, the USMC has to support/use the current mountain training facilities there. It may be more useful to focus on collaboration and joint education with the military.




--
Dan, 5J

On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 3:43:03 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 5:46:19 AM UTC-7, Mike N. wrote:
I believe that military aircraft while flying without ADS-B out, for simulated intercepts for example. They would very likely be flying with ADS-B in to display targets.

I have no proof of the above, just kind of makes sense.

Why would you *assume* anything? Especially things that affect safety.

Lets start with how many US marine or other military aircraft flying in this MOA might be equipped with ADS-B In at all? That list is likely to be pretty short, maybe very short: I am not aware of *any* military aircraft that are ADS-B In equipped. They might exist, might be planned for but I'm not aware of any and have not seen any equipage plans for that amongst the considerable discussion of military ADS-B Out equipage. If anybody has any more information I'd love to hear it.

Avionics systems in military aircraft, airliners and corporate jets etc.. are very complex and highly integrated. You can't just plug in an ADS-B In or Out system. Integrating ADS-B In with the tactical radar and IFF systems in military fighter aircraft is likely to be very complex, the latest (Block III) Super Hornets as an example (since the FA-18 was mentioned as operating in this MOA) don't include ADS-B In AFAIK. It may be less complex to integrate 1090ES In for military aircraft equipped with civilian derived TCAS II like some military transports.

BTW by means of an example, very few airliners that have 1090ES Out also have 1090ES In or UAT In. I'm watching the capability codes being transmitted by 1090ES Out equipped airline traffic in the San Francisco Bay Area (those codes describe their ADS-B In capability), almost none of the 1090ES Out equipped airliners have ADS-B In... but they all have TCAS, which will see and help avoid transponder equipped aircraft.

I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.

The most danger comes with planes flying at very low altitudes like crop dusters. This puts them right in the line of fire of fighters doing low altitude training. There has been a mid-air between a crop duster and an A6 (the crop duster pilot survived - barely). One fmr military pilot recently told me he did 200 ft recon flights in a Mohawk while IFR - that's right, IFR..

Tom

According to this story, only about 20% of the military inventory will have ADS-B by the 2020 deadline. So while it may be required, the requirement has not been met:

https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...ir-force-says/

They expect only 35% of fighters to be so equipped by 2025. Also, they are allowed by the FAA to turn it off if they deem it desirable. So you have a 1 in 5 chance (or less) of seeing these aircraft on your ADS-B in display.

If they can already fly there any way and anytime they want, why new need for the MOA? I assume is it due to a planned step up of operations.

A lot of comments from glider pilots would at the least alert them to the amount of glider traffic in the area, which I suspect they are today oblivious.

On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment.. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!

Oh bull****. You said something that was dead wrong.

On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!

On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:57:52 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Oh bull****. You said something that was dead wrong.

On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!

Oh, bull**** yourself! Read the FAR before commenting!!

On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!

I'm curious as to how "the VAST MAJORITY of the time" they will be operating ADS-B out equipment when in the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?

On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 8:29:06 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!

I'm curious as to how "the VAST MAJORITY of the time" they will be operating ADS-B out equipment when in the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?

You of all people should know that. "reality distortion field".