New MOAs proposed near Marine Corp base and Mt Patterson

I suggest contacting Joshua ATC Control at Edwards AFB. They have been and still are a valuable resource for high altitude wave flights in the Sierra Nevada. And Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake is just down the "block" at Ridgecrest, CA. (Near Inyokern) They obviously have deconfliction procedures in use.

Darryl Ramm wrote on 10/9/2019 12:26 PM:
I'll try to do some counting of Southwest traffic stats on my ADS-B receiver in the Bay Area.

My Phoenix has a Dynon Skyview EFIS with ADS-B in/out. Is there anyway to tell the
target is a military aircraft? Same question for the Powerflarm in my ASH 26 E -
can I determine a target is a military aircraft (I have the simple rectangular
display that just shows little triangles)?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I don't think I've ever seen a military aircraft on my traffic display.

Mostly agree, including this summer right over Swee****er with 2 F-18s southbound. Have never seen them there before but they did not register as either xpndr or ADSB. The only time I ever saw military fighter register with xpndr was an F-15 with amazingly high closure rate over Lake Tahoe. Likely out of Klamath. It was weird to see the distance in nautical miles decrease at such a rate. There was also a drone near Amadee once cruising at 18k. It seemed to have a xpndr but was much slower. This year various SW airline 737s registered on my ADSB so they seem to be getting equipped.
Darren

On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 8:29:06 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.


That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says

You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!

I'm curious as to how "the VAST MAJORITY of the time" they will be operating ADS-B out equipment when in the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?

Any aircraft, military or not, WILL have to have ADS-B out installed to fly in rule airspace on Jan 1, and I presume this covers most military aircraft. And the equipment must be operating UNLESS they fall into a very narrow mission exception.

I am curious as to how you know that "the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?" Are you referring to just military aircraft or all aircraft?

Does THIS
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2019-07-18/pdf/2019-15248.pdf
shed any light?

On 10/9/2019 5:55 PM, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 8:29:06 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]
I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.

That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says
You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!
I'm curious as to how "the VAST MAJORITY of the time" they will be operating ADS-B out equipment when in the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?
Any aircraft, military or not, WILL have to have ADS-B out installed to fly in rule airspace on Jan 1, and I presume this covers most military aircraft. And the equipment must be operating UNLESS they fall into a very narrow mission exception.

I am curious as to how you know that "the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?" Are you referring to just military aircraft or all aircraft?

--
Dan, 5J

On Thursday, October 10, 2019 at 8:36:07 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Does THIS
shed any light?




On 10/9/2019 5:55 PM, 2G wrote:



On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 8:29:06 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:


On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:51:19 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:


On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 8:50:24 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:


On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
[snip]


I spoke to an FAA avionics inspector at the Spokane FSDO about this very issue. The answer: ALL military aircraft must be in the same compliance as civilian aircraft, so they have transponders and ADS-B. I can't say whether those fighters had their transponders turned off, or my flarm didn't receive the signals. In other words, it was a FWIW.



That is not a correct statement. There are exemption for military and others for use of ADS-B Out within civilian airspace.

14 CFR 92.225 (f) (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

...As amended earlier this year, but its been long coming/well understood the regulations were screwed up because they were missing such a clause and something was coming that would fix it. And this is in addition to what military aircraft will do in their own airspace. Military aircraft doing say stealth and ECM countermeasures work out at Fallon or Edwards within their airspace are not running around with transponders or ADS-B on.

And lest anybody think this exemption is really only going to be applied to specific high-risk missions... the US military is expect to have ~21% of it's aircraft ADS-B Out equipped by January 1st 2020. They will be getting lots of exemptions, lots of them. Not flying ~3/4 of your fleet is not an option. https://www.aviationtoday.com/2019/0...air-force-says


You omitted a critical part of this paragraph:

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -

(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

So, the VAST MAJORITY of the time the military MUST OPERATE ADS-B equipment. Obviously, they will from time-to-time have missions requiring disabling ADS-B.
The statement WAS CORRECT!


I'm curious as to how "the VAST MAJORITY of the time" they will be operating ADS-B out equipment when in the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?


Any aircraft, military or not, WILL have to have ADS-B out installed to fly in rule airspace on Jan 1, and I presume this covers most military aircraft. And the equipment must be operating UNLESS they fall into a very narrow mission exception.

I am curious as to how you know that "the vast majority of aircraft this equipment is not installed?" Are you referring to just military aircraft or all aircraft?





--

Dan, 5J

Dan

That is a brilliant document, I wish I had referenced it :-) The second page shows what a mess this all is, and makes it clear the actual intent here is *not* a narrow per-flight exclusion of need to use ADS-B out... even if that is what the regulation may seem to say. The regulations are kinda amusing, they say nothing about how permission is obtained, how frequently, for how long etc., and to somebody already confused could imply the likely reverse of the real situation... a narrow per-situation exclusion only (uh nope) vs. wide scale military non-use (likely). There are also apparently further ongoing negations underway about how the military is not able to comply with the 2020 Mandate, but for now this regulatory change provides one exclusion tool for to help with that.

Back to the thread, I hope everyone took the time to fill in a comment to the FAA on this. I did. The main point, I think, is to make them aware of the vast amount of glider traffic through this MOA, which they are probably not aware of at all. I pointed them to OLC, but if someone more energetic than me wanted to put some facts traces and numbers together it might be more persuasive. In any case, regulators do track public comments, and they become part of the public record. If there are incidents, it is much better if we can point to hundreds of "we told you so" warnings.

John Cochrane

On Friday, October 11, 2019 at 7:14:17 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
Back to the thread, I hope everyone took the time to fill in a comment to the FAA on this. I did. The main point, I think, is to make them aware of the vast amount of glider traffic through this MOA, which they are probably not aware of at all. I pointed them to OLC, but if someone more energetic than me wanted to put some facts traces and numbers together it might be more persuasive. In any case, regulators do track public comments, and they become part of the public record. If there are incidents, it is much better if we can point to hundreds of "we told you so" warnings.

John Cochrane

They likely don't care about glider traffic thru the proposed MOA, which they are currently flying in anyway. A "told you so" mentality is childish - you are still required to observe VFR rules (as are they), namely "see and be seen." Sure you can comment, but I guarantee this will have zero affect on their decision (they are merely going thru the regulatory steps that is mandated). Equip your gliders with a transponder and PowerFlarm (if you haven't already done so), which will alert you to other targets.

Tom