15 Hour Wonders

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 7:22:28 PM UTC-5, Bob Youngblood wrote:
The FAA has made it possible for glider plots with very limited time to acquire a CFIG rating with only 15 hours of total glider time. This is truly an accident waiting to happen, what could a glider pilot actually know with such limited time? What do you think?

Has this ever been a problem? 99.99% of power CFIs are too smart, sensible, and scared to become CFIG add ons in 15 hours and go to battle with students. Chances are the .01% don't want to become CFIGs. Plus clubs have the ability to say no thank you to 15 hour CFIGs. I suppose it is a sort of loophole, or those guys are cheating compare to the 'I ran wings for 20 years before becoming a CFIG' crowd, yawn. No need to ask for more restrictions and no need to lose sleep over having more freedom than might be sensible, if such a thing is even possible.

Actually the regulations state that any add-on category rating only requires 15 hours in category.

When I was a DPE I tested a few SEL to Glider CFI candidates, all of them wanted to become more proficient gliders pilots. Many of them used the add-on process as a renewal for their CFI certificate and never intended to teach in gliders. It's likely they have been teaching for at least two years before adding the glider rating.

They must also have received instruction from a glider certificated instructor before taking the test (though no endorsement is needed for the first attempt). They must also pass a knowledge test (short version, 25 questions) on soaring principles and topics.

The regulation also states that they must pass a Commercial Glider test first, before applying for the CFI-G.

I recite all of this to make the point that this is not a casual, single weekend process, and I think very few would actually apply for the test with only 15 hours.

Mike

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 9:49:07 PM UTC-5, SoaringXCellence wrote:
Actually the regulations state that any add-on category rating only requires 15 hours in category.

When I was a DPE I tested a few SEL to Glider CFI candidates, all of them wanted to become more proficient gliders pilots. Many of them used the add-on process as a renewal for their CFI certificate and never intended to teach in gliders. It's likely they have been teaching for at least two years before adding the glider rating.

They must also have received instruction from a glider certificated instructor before taking the test (though no endorsement is needed for the first attempt). They must also pass a knowledge test (short version, 25 questions) on soaring principles and topics.

The regulation also states that they must pass a Commercial Glider test first, before applying for the CFI-G.

I recite all of this to make the point that this is not a casual, single weekend process, and I think very few would actually apply for the test with only 15 hours.

Mike

Mike, IMHO the process has become a weekend gig. I can tell you of an instance where this has happened and I just sit back and shake my head and laugh..The current system is allowing for low experience level teachers to instruct introductory level pilots and the results will and are leading to a lesser quality of learning through experience.
I am not a teacher, never intended to even consider getting a CFIG, I would probably end up in jail from hitting someone in the back of the head, but I do have something that is much more valuable than that rating. There is no substitute for experience and that does go a long way, you would probably agree. When looking for a surgeon would you consider experience to be a factor?
I do fly both ends of the rope, and I can state for a fact that sometimes I say to myself that I hope this idiot doesn't kill me! Hopefully I have a few more years of glider flying left in me, but the experience has been great.

Do you know of an instance where a 15 hour CFIG went straight to frequent teaching? If so isn't that more a fault of the club or commercial operation? We get it it would be unsound if 300 hour airplane CFIs were doing 15 hours in gliders then going off teaching, but I don't see it happening. The only place it probably has happened is in the aviation flight academies that operated motor gliders. They must have had enough rules or gray hair supervision to make it work.
Yes I get the indignation cause it could happen and those 15 hour CFIG candidates didn't suffer enough. Personally I'd welcome airplane CFI add on to toss the CFIG in the pile early on, then take the process of using it really slow. Toss em easy stuff occasionally while they are recreational soaring and building experience. I encourage private pilot airplane transitions to jump straight to Commercial, not to immediately go out and hustle rides but so years down the road they are one less hurdle from becoming CFIs. As to the horror of creating low experienced commercial glider pilots most decline and do the private add on.

I was probably a 500 hr airplane CFI when I got my 15 hrs PIC and added CFIG...

You act like this I some sort of new development. This has been the rule for a very long time. This is nothing new. It also applies to all additional categories for CFIs so it's not a glider specific thing.

As a pilot who flew hang gliders for 38 years back in the day we learned pretty much by ourselves and got gliders with no experience. After a few flights I hooked up my harness to a buddy and launched him. No one would do that today and I doubt anyone wants to take on that responsibility without the expience and knowledge today. You don’t need rules all the time.

DC

I believe it was George Benard Shaw who said "He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches," in "Maxims for Revolutionists, Man and Superman," 1903. A more recent addition to this phase is "he who cannot teach, teaches teachers."

While I don't completely agree with this it has been my experience that there are those who are cut out to teach and others who clearly are not. I had the good fortune to always find myself in the hands of those with tens of thousands of hours both flying and teaching. My private and commercial were at the hands of a WW2 P51 pilot who instructed in the T6 for the Army Air Corps and later the USAF as a contact instructor and another who had flown the Ford TriMotor for an airline. My commercial glider add on was from a guy with thousands of glider flights, grey hair, an amazing level of skill and the proper personality and temperment to be an instructor. I have since added a private/rotorcraft certificate with a far younger instructor, relatively low time and about 1/3rd my age, such is the status quo at whirlybird schools. I was able to see the stark difference in communications and teaching technique.

My concern is not with the amount of time an instructor has but with his or her "ability to teach," to impart information and to know when the student has adequately achieved that level of skill. One can have amazing skills in the glider, skills that many top level Senior and National Champion racing competitors might not have and still not be able to judge when a student is ready to solo, allowing ones ego to get in the way of safety. I believe I have experienced this first hand as a tow pilot. I would strongly advise that any commercial or club operation closely supervise new CFIGs and before they solo a student to have the chief instructor ride with that student. The helicopter flight school with which I am now involved does this and it makes sense. While a new instructor may be up to date on rules and regulations and fresh from a check ride, there is NO substitute for experience..

Walt Connelly

Ditto what Walt says. I fly pipeline work in my winter off season from crop spraying and am responsible for training new pipeline fliers. The vast majority of our pilots are young CFI’s who are looking for additional hours on their way to the airlines. I can tell you first hand that the level of stick and rudder skills in the vast majority of these guys is attrocious!

Yes they can make a 360 holding alt to +-100 and airspeed +- 10 but just barely, with the nose pitching up n down and the ball all over the place and they are slavishly dependant on their instruments. Yes they “pass� the commercial standard but they have no feel or understanding, or more serious, no desire to understand the nuances of proper airmanship. I quite literally have to reteach these guys how to make a steep coordinated turn. There are exceptions, I do run into a few guys who love flying and want to learn all they can of the foundations of airmanship. These guys are a joy to teach. But they are the exception.

What we have is something of a dumbing down of basic flying skills. And this is being passed down the line. While guys are great at working the electronics and at flight communications, they are not taught or encouraged to perfect the flying of the airplane. I’m afraid this same trend is working its way into soaring.

Paul, I think our issue is not the shortage of CFI-G’s, but their reluctance to use their rating. Our club has three who are licensed but don’t teach. I think you will see the same trend nationally. Just in the last issue of Soaring there are at least five new cfi’s in the picture section, but I wonder how many of them are actually going to become active in teaching.

As for guys meeting the FAA standards to get a rating, I think my post above and walts experience says/demonstrates what we think about that.

Le mardi 10 décembre 2019 15:31:15 UTC+1, a écritÂ*:
I believe it was George Benard Shaw who said "He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches," in "Maxims for Revolutionists, Man and Superman," 1903. A more recent addition to this phase is "he who cannot teach, teaches teachers."

While I don't completely agree with this it has been my experience that there are those who are cut out to teach and others who clearly are not. I had the good fortune to always find myself in the hands of those with tens of thousands of hours both flying and teaching. My private and commercial were at the hands of a WW2 P51 pilot who instructed in the T6 for the Army Air Corps and later the USAF as a contact instructor and another who had flown the Ford TriMotor for an airline. My commercial glider add on was from a guy with thousands of glider flights, grey hair, an amazing level of skill and the proper personality and temperment to be an instructor. I have since added a private/rotorcraft certificate with a far younger instructor, relatively low time and about 1/3rd my age, such is the status quo at whirlybird schools. I was able to see the stark difference in communications and teaching technique.

My concern is not with the amount of time an instructor has but with his or her "ability to teach," to impart information and to know when the student has adequately achieved that level of skill. One can have amazing skills in the glider, skills that many top level Senior and National Champion racing competitors might not have and still not be able to judge when a student is ready to solo, allowing ones ego to get in the way of safety. I believe I have experienced this first hand as a tow pilot. I would strongly advise that any commercial or club operation closely supervise new CFIGs and before they solo a student to have the chief instructor ride with that student. The helicopter flight school with which I am now involved does this and it makes sense. While a new instructor may be up to date on rules and regulations and fresh from a check ride, there is NO substitute for experience.

Walt Connelly

In Germany or Switzerland, any new CFI gets a preliminary rating and is required to do his teaching for the first 150 flights or so under the supervision of an experienced CFI. Only then his rating is turned into the "permanent" 3-years rating.
Training towards the rating is a 14 days fulltime course with an entry test, and a final test. Candidates must carry the endorsement of the head of the flight school they want to teach for (typically the club's chief instructor).