WWGC.

At 13:34 18 January 2020, Tango Eight wrote:
Rules enforcement, as we observe, is problematic.


A lifetime ban from all gliding competition for those found 'operating
outside the rules' might assist in this - i.e. zero tolerance.

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 7:34:08 AM UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 8:56:23 PM UTC-5, Tom BravoMike wrote:

So the solution is... to stop fighting it. Make the teams on the ground be part of the 'team flying'

That's what's been going on for the last decade. Check around. There's much history here. The technology arms race led to a ground controlled sport that many find unsatisfying. IGC now trying to find the way back to a more individual sport. Rules enforcement, as we observe, is problematic.

T8

Somehow nobody objects to 'ground controlled' world records - see the Perlan project. And it is a sort of an ongoing world competition - with great expenses involved. Just a thought..

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 1:50:37 PM UTC-5, Tom BravoMike wrote:
On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 7:34:08 AM UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 8:56:23 PM UTC-5, Tom BravoMike wrote:

So the solution is... to stop fighting it. Make the teams on the ground be part of the 'team flying'

That's what's been going on for the last decade. Check around. There's much history here. The technology arms race led to a ground controlled sport that many find unsatisfying. IGC now trying to find the way back to a more individual sport. Rules enforcement, as we observe, is problematic.

T8

Somehow nobody objects to 'ground controlled' world records - see the Perlan project. And it is a sort of an ongoing world competition - with great expenses involved. Just a thought..

How about air controlled?
I understand one altitude record was set using the owners jet to scout the lift areas.
That said, I think record flying is much different than competition in this respect.
UH

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 10:50:37 AM UTC-8, Tom BravoMike wrote:
On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 7:34:08 AM UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Friday, January 17, 2020 at 8:56:23 PM UTC-5, Tom BravoMike wrote:

So the solution is... to stop fighting it. Make the teams on the ground be part of the 'team flying'

That's what's been going on for the last decade. Check around. There's much history here. The technology arms race led to a ground controlled sport that many find unsatisfying. IGC now trying to find the way back to a more individual sport. Rules enforcement, as we observe, is problematic.

T8

Somehow nobody objects to 'ground controlled' world records - see the Perlan project. And it is a sort of an ongoing world competition - with great expenses involved. Just a thought..

The difference is not the level of technology or expense being used, it is the level of deception between one competitor and the next.

On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:50:34 -0800, Tom BravoMike wrote:

Somehow nobody objects to 'ground controlled' world records - see the
Perlan project. And it is a sort of an ongoing world competition - with
great expenses involved. Just a thought..

Record setting is a totally different game. No technology is ruled out
and it can be individual or a group effort.

I was surprised to see how high Perlan 2 was being towed since they got
use of the Grob towplane, so looked at the rules for the absolute gliding
altitude record. It turns out you can tow as high as you like and the
flight counts as a record provided the glider climbs at least another
5000m (16350 ft) after release.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

So,Australia got 'caught' using freely availible live tracking information from the web. Nobody knows who else was using it, it was just a few clicks away. It is always more likely an English speaking country gets caught since most people know what they are saying.

Does it mean that anybody that has ever used live tracking through which ever legal way gets penalised? Setting up flarm receivers would definitely be illegal. I wonder how many comps will have different winners in retrospect..

At 23:58 18 January 2020, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:50:34 -0800, Tom BravoMike wrote:

Somehow nobody objects to 'ground controlled' world records -
see the
Perlan project. And it is a sort of an ongoing world competition -
with
great expenses involved. Just a thought..

Record setting is a totally different game. No technology is ruled
out
and it can be individual or a group effort.

I was surprised to see how high Perlan 2 was being towed since
they got
use of the Grob towplane, so looked at the rules for the absolute
gliding
altitude record. It turns out you can tow as high as you like and
the
flight counts as a record provided the glider climbs at least another
5000m (16350 ft) after release.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org


Jim Payne has said that on some days where the stratospheric wave
is working to high altitudes, the lower tropospheric waves are not
working so well. To have to use lots of precious battery life and
oxygen to muddle up through the lower wave system detracted
from the time that they could use to focus on the high altitude
objectives, so they got a tow plane that could reliably get them to
the bottom of the stratospheric system without a hassle. The
additional 5000 meter gain turned out not to be an issue with the
heights they were able to achieve. That whole program is way out
our normal frame of reference and comprehension.

RO

This just blows my mind.
I've live in Australia and worked there.
Spent 4 full comps seasons Hang Gliding there.
This seems to me to be so out of character to the typical Aussies I know.
Cheating? NFW!
Its just not in their DNA if you ask me.
Does anyone really know what happened?
I'm not on FB
Did they use public tracking that was available to all with no time delay?
Or Did they hack the delayed tracking system?
How did they get caught?
Are team leaders in radio contact with their team all day?
What tipped other team leaders off that something was Up?

On Monday, 20 January 2020 08:38:40 UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
This just blows my mind.
I've live in Australia and worked there.
Spent 4 full comps seasons Hang Gliding there.
This seems to me to be so out of character to the typical Aussies I know.
Cheating? NFW!
Its just not in their DNA if you ask me.
Does anyone really know what happened?
I'm not on FB
Did they use public tracking that was available to all with no time delay?
Or Did they hack the delayed tracking system?
How did they get caught?
Are team leaders in radio contact with their team all day?
What tipped other team leaders off that something was Up?

Best write up I have seen https://ussoaringteams.org/john-good...for-wwgc-2019/

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:51:32 AM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Monday, 20 January 2020 08:38:40 UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
This just blows my mind.
I've live in Australia and worked there.
Spent 4 full comps seasons Hang Gliding there.
This seems to me to be so out of character to the typical Aussies I know.
Cheating? NFW!
Its just not in their DNA if you ask me.
Does anyone really know what happened?
I'm not on FB
Did they use public tracking that was available to all with no time delay?
Or Did they hack the delayed tracking system?
How did they get caught?
Are team leaders in radio contact with their team all day?
What tipped other team leaders off that something was Up?

Best write up I have seen https://ussoaringteams.org/john-good...for-wwgc-2019/

John's analysis is very balanced and describes the situation very well. Those pilots (like myself) who have been around since the competition days of cameras and smoked barograph traces have been predicting this or similar dilemmas ever since we got GPS and other more advanced electronic capabilities. The question is whether to ban new developments completely or ensure that they are equally accessible to all competitors. An unenviable task for the rule makers and enforcers, as we have just witnessed.

Mike