Future of aviation, or flash in the pan??

On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 6:59:56 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 1:48:48 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 7:04:36 PM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 7:14:12 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
...an electric retrofit for the AS self launchers.
The engineering and installation should be relatively simple.

Um, not on this planet.

Perhaps you did not catch the "relatively"? Engine bay is already there, the doors are there, it is engineered and built for the weight, the extraction mechanism is already there, even the prop and boom. So yes, "relatively simple" compared to retrofitting say an ASW27, which is being done, and has none of those things.

I am not a stranger to complexity, or aircraft design.

"How hard could it be"
That depends.
Certainly if you already have an engine bay, and lift mechanism, you have a great start. No engineering the hole in the fuselage, etc.
If you have a proven drive system, much of the next part is more easily accomplished.
2 meaningful issues with converting the later Schleicher ships:
1) Where do the batteries go? Engine bay has some room but CG possibilities become limited. Wing installation would most certainly involve major stuff in any of the hard tank wings. Support and service access are non trivial.
This is the major task on the '34. The rest is mostly transplanting proven motor and drive into the '34 from the 32E.
2) Engine bay size matters because it limits available prop diameter and this is a real issue in getting performance out of the drive.

I have some practical experience with this as I am now starting test flying of an ASW-24E that has been converted to electric.

How hard could it be?

The largest barrier is a lack of proven motor/ controller systems to incorporate into a project.
FWIW
UH

So how hard was it, for a very skilled and practiced professional? Will you be publishing an article in Soaring, a pre-writeup on RAS? Sounds very interesting.

On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 6:59:56 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 1:48:48 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 7:04:36 PM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 7:14:12 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
...an electric retrofit for the AS self launchers.
The engineering and installation should be relatively simple.

Um, not on this planet.

Perhaps you did not catch the "relatively"? Engine bay is already there, the doors are there, it is engineered and built for the weight, the extraction mechanism is already there, even the prop and boom. So yes, "relatively simple" compared to retrofitting say an ASW27, which is being done, and has none of those things.

I am not a stranger to complexity, or aircraft design.

"How hard could it be"
That depends.
Certainly if you already have an engine bay, and lift mechanism, you have a great start. No engineering the hole in the fuselage, etc.
If you have a proven drive system, much of the next part is more easily accomplished.
2 meaningful issues with converting the later Schleicher ships:
1) Where do the batteries go? Engine bay has some room but CG possibilities become limited. Wing installation would most certainly involve major stuff in any of the hard tank wings. Support and service access are non trivial.
This is the major task on the '34. The rest is mostly transplanting proven motor and drive into the '34 from the 32E.
2) Engine bay size matters because it limits available prop diameter and this is a real issue in getting performance out of the drive.

I have some practical experience with this as I am now starting test flying of an ASW-24E that has been converted to electric.

How hard could it be?

The largest barrier is a lack of proven motor/ controller systems to incorporate into a project.
FWIW
UH

The engine bay is quite large, and would be unoccupied by motor and muffler, and requires about 170 lbs to achieve normal W/B. The space in the wheel well used for the fuel tanks is also available, though the volume in the engine bay alone is probably enough. In my post I suggested that Schleicher do this (instead of the 34), they have already developed the motor/battery/controller for use in other gliders, so that is not a barrier for them. Thus "relatively simple". I'll stand by that characterization.

I wonder if you had a plane with ballast bags, if that would make wing batteries easier.

Not sure if the wing structure expects such concentrated loads?

On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 9:59:56 AM UTC-5, wrote:
How hard could it be?

Here's an update from another skilled practitioner:
http://www.streifly.de/news-e.htm

Dave Nadler wrote on 1/31/2020 12:15 PM:
On Tuesday, January 28, 2020 at 9:59:56 AM UTC-5, wrote:
How hard could it be?

Here's an update from another skilled practitioner:
http://www.streifly.de/news-e.htm

Any idea what the "electromagnetic disturbances" are disturbing?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

wrote on 1/26/2020 9:27 AM:


I know several people WA state that are happy self-launching in their Silent
Electro and miniLaks. The GP15 has been delayed, in part because they are a new
glider company, and in part due the technical difficulties of producing a high
performance, self-launching sailplane. It still has a long order list. And when
Schleicher thinks it time to enter the field, it's not the future anymore.. Call
the Schleicher dealer and place your order for one, before the list gets too long.


Eric, I did just that, requested a quote for the AS 34. Full system price with trailer delivered to the US was just under $200k. That's really a lot for a non-flapped 18 m "Standard Class" glider that was developed over 25 years ago. I don't agree with you that this is "affordable". I also heard that sales are not so hot, you can get one this summer. If they had put this into a '29 or '33 I might be interested.

Have you priced an ASH 31Mi? That will make the '34 look more affordable. Or check
out the others I mentioned: GP15, miniLAK, Silent 2 Electro - all significantly
less than the AS 34. But, I am surprised at the $200K figure. I was quoted $180K a
couple months ago, which seemed quite reasonable.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 10:32:42 PM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 1/26/2020 9:27 AM:


I know several people WA state that are happy self-launching in their Silent
Electro and miniLaks. The GP15 has been delayed, in part because they are a new
glider company, and in part due the technical difficulties of producing a high
performance, self-launching sailplane. It still has a long order list. And when
Schleicher thinks it time to enter the field, it's not the future anymore.. Call
the Schleicher dealer and place your order for one, before the list gets too long.


Eric, I did just that, requested a quote for the AS 34. Full system price with trailer delivered to the US was just under $200k. That's really a lot for a non-flapped 18 m "Standard Class" glider that was developed over 25 years ago. I don't agree with you that this is "affordable". I also heard that sales are not so hot, you can get one this summer. If they had put this into a '29 or '33 I might be interested.

Have you priced an ASH 31Mi? That will make the '34 look more affordable. Or check
out the others I mentioned: GP15, miniLAK, Silent 2 Electro - all significantly
less than the AS 34. But, I am surprised at the $200K figure. I was quoted $180K a
couple months ago, which seemed quite reasonable.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Eric, my estimate includes $20k for a trailer, $10k for instruments and $4k for ocean freight.

wrote on 1/27/2020 6:48 PM:
On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 10:32:42 PM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 1/26/2020 9:27 AM:


I know several people WA state that are happy self-launching in their Silent
Electro and miniLaks. The GP15 has been delayed, in part because they are a new
glider company, and in part due the technical difficulties of producing a high
performance, self-launching sailplane. It still has a long order list. And when
Schleicher thinks it time to enter the field, it's not the future anymore.. Call
the Schleicher dealer and place your order for one, before the list gets too long.


Eric, I did just that, requested a quote for the AS 34. Full system price with trailer delivered to the US was just under $200k. That's really a lot for a non-flapped 18 m "Standard Class" glider that was developed over 25 years ago. I don't agree with you that this is "affordable". I also heard that sales are not so hot, you can get one this summer. If they had put this into a '29 or '33 I might be interested.

Have you priced an ASH 31Mi? That will make the '34 look more affordable. Or check
out the others I mentioned: GP15, miniLAK, Silent 2 Electro - all significantly
less than the AS 34. But, I am surprised at the $200K figure. I was quoted $180K a
couple months ago, which seemed quite reasonable.

Eric, my estimate includes $20k for a trailer, $10k for instruments and $4k for ocean freight.

The $180K I was given was for the glider, with trailer and typical instruments,
delivered to the US.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 6:48:25 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 10:32:42 PM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 1/26/2020 9:27 AM:


I know several people WA state that are happy self-launching in their Silent
Electro and miniLaks. The GP15 has been delayed, in part because they are a new
glider company, and in part due the technical difficulties of producing a high
performance, self-launching sailplane. It still has a long order list. And when
Schleicher thinks it time to enter the field, it's not the future anymore.. Call
the Schleicher dealer and place your order for one, before the list gets too long.


Eric, I did just that, requested a quote for the AS 34. Full system price with trailer delivered to the US was just under $200k. That's really a lot for a non-flapped 18 m "Standard Class" glider that was developed over 25 years ago. I don't agree with you that this is "affordable". I also heard that sales are not so hot, you can get one this summer. If they had put this into a '29 or '33 I might be interested.

Have you priced an ASH 31Mi? That will make the '34 look more affordable. Or check
out the others I mentioned: GP15, miniLAK, Silent 2 Electro - all significantly
less than the AS 34. But, I am surprised at the $200K figure. I was quoted $180K a
couple months ago, which seemed quite reasonable.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Eric, my estimate includes $20k for a trailer, $10k for instruments and $4k for ocean freight.

I think $20K for the trailer is a bit light and $4K for ocean transport must be to East coast?