Libelle suitability for beginners

I enjoyed flying the Junior, did my first 3 landouts in Juniors and appreciated the spoiler effectiveness.

But there's some gotchas:

1. The manual softpedals how much forward trim you need for takeoff. I ballooned behind a Pawnee, had one bounce correcting. Then discovered not long later the spoilers had come open.

2. There's a pitch down moment pulling spoilers. A definite change for pilots transitioning from an L-23 which has a mild pitch up.

3. Short pilots with the setback forward pulling full spoilers must watch against twisting their shoulders and inadvertently pushing the stick forward..

I lost a friend who got caught by 2 & 3 close to the ground. She reacted to the unexpected pitch down at 50' by first closing spoilers and subsequently finding herself at 80+ kt. running out of runway and ideas. She yanked full spoilers at ~20' and inadvertently pushed the stick forward.

Do get a proper briefing from somebody who has actually flown the Junior.

Do identify how far back the handle has to go to crack the spoilers open – it's about 1/3.

After release, pull full spoilers to see how it behaves.

Fiddling with spoilers low down makes for interesting landings until you sort out the pitch moment changes.

All that said, the Junior remains my favorite fixed gear single seater, others being PW-5 and L-33, both of which I've landed out in.

On Sunday, February 16, 2020 at 4:51:41 PM UTC+13, George Haeh wrote:

1. The manual softpedals how much forward trim you need for takeoff. I ballooned behind a Pawnee, had one bounce correcting. Then discovered not long later the spoilers had come open.

At 170 pounds with chute, I've never had any bouncing or kiting problems with the Junior trimmed for 60 knots during takeoff. In the Junior I fly that is notch 4/10, with 1/10 being full aft trim. YMMV, but I don't think that it is at all fair to suggest that the Junior is prone to PIO on takeoff.


2. There's a pitch down moment pulling spoilers. A definite change for pilots transitioning from an L-23 which has a mild pitch up.

Huh. I mostly trained in L-23 (which I agree has a distinct pitch up when opening spoilers), then took 3 flights in ASK-21 and one in a PW-6. Then I hopped in the Junior and never noticed any pitching problem. Perhaps I had learned from the L-23 the merits of gradually opening spoilers. I don't understand why top of the wing spoilers would cause a pitch down.


3. Short pilots with the setback forward pulling full spoilers must watch against twisting their shoulders and inadvertently pushing the stick forward.


It's easy to get that final aftward movement of the spoiler lever by bending the wrist and pushing with finger tips on the front of the handle from above (without any body twist). Once you learn that, the difficulty of fully opening the spoilers becomes a feature, not a bug. This is because the spoilers are ridiculously effective, maybe twice as effective as the ASK-21 (this might be partly due to the higher sink rate of the Junior at the same pattern speed), so you don't want to accidentally open them full, and there is rarely any need to open full.

One of few times I've opened the spoilers full (for a few seconds) on a Junior was on the same flight that I set the altimeter 1000 low, such that I entered the pattern at 2000. I noticed the problem immediately on downwind and started correcting, but I flew a very steep final. I did not know exactly how high I was, so I snap decided to ignore the 'broken altimeter', and eyeball the landing.

Even though Best Glide in the Junior is at 43 knots (slower than the ASK-21) it has the same handicap as the ASK-21. I guess that is because it climbs so much better than the ASK-21.

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 2:44:57 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
Another 'Club Class' glider to consider is the SZD 51-1. The Junior is benign, built to sustain hard landings, has very effective airbrakes, it slips, PU painted at the factory (no gel coat liability), fun to fly well-harmonized controls, and designed from the ground up to be a single seat trainer. Limited aerobatics permitted.

Things that may or may not matter are 1)it has a somewhat upright seating position, so pilots with long trunks may not have enough head height. 2)a wing dolly is recommended.

Of the 261 built, there are only 7 Juniors in the USA, and 4 are club owned. So Juniors are rarely offered for sale.

Why are you discussing the Junior when the topic is specifically about the Std Libelle?
UH

Thanks so much for all the positive responses!
I have a soon to be 14 year old son who has been grilling me about soaring.
This summer I'm going to get him started, and see if he takes to it.

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-5, Nick Kennedy wrote:
On W&W for sale recently there have been several Libelles listed, some look very nice.
And affordable.
Are these ships suitable for very low time beginners?
I've heard they are "lightly" built.
I've also never heard of them having any structural problems.
Thought's?

My first glider was a 201B. She's a homesick angel. Loves to thermal and out-climb your friends. I bought mine for 15K and sold it for 15K after two years. Twenty years later, you see them for, 15 K.

You cannot go wrong with a Libelle...

For beginners, I would say the Airbrakes are not as effective as I would like. You need to make sure you have your speed right in the pattern or you will go floating down the strip if too much speed at final.

On Saturday, February 15, 2020 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-5, Nick Kennedy wrote:
On W&W for sale recently there have been several Libelles listed, some look very nice.
And affordable.
Are these ships suitable for very low time beginners?
I've heard they are "lightly" built.
I've also never heard of them having any structural problems.
Thought's?

If enough pilots here rag the Libelle against buying for inexperienced pilots, I can pick one up at a great value!

Buy a Libelle. You cannot go wrong! I came out of a 2-33 to a Libelle. No problems...

Gary
ASW27b
"SQ"

Nobody ever regretted buying a Libelle. Easy thing to fly (while taking attention to fly well), excellent factory support from Streifeneder with parts, mods (winglets, fillets, etc) and one day you'll be able to slap an electric self-lauch setup on it.

Cheers,
Nick.

On Monday, February 17, 2020 at 8:41:12 PM UTC-5, Nick Gilbert wrote:
...one day you'll be able to slap an electric self-lauch setup on it.

Don't hold your breath, or you'll turn blue...