Mini-Winch for FES

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 12:34:32 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 10:40:53 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
Agree with other posters, not sure how much you'd save in terms of
money/effort/time with a mini winch vs a regular one.

Speaking of that, what ever happened to the great electric winch project
up at Bend OR that set the internet on fire not so long ago?


There was a paper given at the last SSA convention by Bill Daniels about his electric winch development - at least it was on the roster. I couldn't make it to the convention; does anyone know if this talk was recorded and will be made available?
Uli
'AS'

Hello winch head. Missed seeing you. Bill's talk updated progress on the electric winch and some design changes going forward with the design. I suppose Bill might provide a copy w/audio like he did previously. I'll ping him abotu that. He desktop died after returning from Little Rock, so he's working on a laptop at the moment, until he finds a replacement. AFAIK, the live session was not recorded.

Frank Whiteley

On Friday, March 6, 2020 at 10:44:25 PM UTC-5, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 12:34:32 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 10:40:53 AM UTC-5, kinsell wrote:
Agree with other posters, not sure how much you'd save in terms of
money/effort/time with a mini winch vs a regular one.

Speaking of that, what ever happened to the great electric winch project
up at Bend OR that set the internet on fire not so long ago?


There was a paper given at the last SSA convention by Bill Daniels about his electric winch development - at least it was on the roster. I couldn't make it to the convention; does anyone know if this talk was recorded and will be made available?
Uli
'AS'

Hello winch head. Missed seeing you. Bill's talk updated progress on the electric winch and some design changes going forward with the design. I suppose Bill might provide a copy w/audio like he did previously. I'll ping him abotu that. He desktop died after returning from Little Rock, so he's working on a laptop at the moment, until he finds a replacement. AFAIK, the live session was not recorded.

Frank Whiteley

Thanks for the update, Frank!
Uli
'AS'

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 8:40:53 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
Agree with other posters, not sure how much you'd save in terms of
money/effort/time with a mini winch vs a regular one.

Speaking of that, what ever happened to the great electric winch project
up at Bend OR that set the internet on fire not so long ago?

Still a work in progress. Whether it will operate this year remains to be seen.

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 12:38:57 AM UTC-5, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

This is just a thought...

I’ve recently been extremely interested in the FES (Front Electric Sustainer) sailplanes. They are becoming quite popular. Even very high-performance racing sailplanes like the Ventus 3 are being sold with FES systems installed.

I am the U.S. dealer for DG/LS and they offer the LS8e neo with FES and the new DG-1001e neo with FES prototype will fly very soon. It will be the first 2-seat sailplane with FES. I would love to trade my DG-1000S in for a DG-1001e neo with FES, but so far my DG-1000S co-owners aren't ready for that upgrade.

I'm not very experienced with winches and certainly not an expert on such matters, but I think there may be a nice market for a very small electric winch designed to get an FES-equipped sailplane just up to 100 feet – high enough to use the FES to climb to the first thermal. Even self-launch capable FES sailplanes would benefit from a small winch because they would save much more of the sailplane's battery for use later in the flight - since the initial takeoff roll requires a lot of power.

You can see an interesting video showing an FES-equipped sailplane taking an autotow to about 100 feet he
https://youtu.be/pTeNKM2cXQk

I would think that an electric winch could get a glider to 100 feet quite easily and be quite small and relatively inexpensive. The rope needed would be much less, and the drum could be much smaller – I imagine.

A "level ground bungee launch" to 100 feet would be another interesting option. But I would think that would have risks from by the bungee snapping or coming loose and hurting someone.

Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding...

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

Stupid question: since FES (Front Electric Sustainer) sailplanes have a propeller in the front, with very little ground clearance, how would you attach a tow rope without interfering with the propeller? Perhaps you mean a winch launch with the propeller stowed, turning on the FES after releasing from the rope. Seems like doing that at 100 feet is not a great idea, even though FES startup is a lot simpler and quicker than with other sailplane motor arrangements. So at the least you'd want to go to 300 feet or so - high enough to try and start the FES, and land safely if that does not work.

And as Herb said, for a good acceleration at the start, you'd still need a lot of power (at least 100 KW), nothing "mini" about that.

Yeah I'd like to hear more about (full-size) electric winches in development. With the progress being made on electric cars (and trucks) and their batteries that seems like the future of winches.

At 17:06 04 March 2020, wrote:
On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 12:38:57 AM UTC-5, Paul
Remde wrote:
Hi,
=20
This is just a thought... =20
=20
I=E2=80=99ve recently been extremely interested in
the FES (Front
Electri=
c Sustainer) sailplanes. They are becoming quite popular.
Even very
high-=
performance racing sailplanes like the Ventus 3 are being
sold with FES
sys=
tems installed.
=20
I am the U.S. dealer for DG/LS and they offer the LS8e
neo with FES and
t=
he new DG-1001e neo with FES prototype will fly very
soon. It will be the
=
first 2-seat sailplane with FES. I would love to trade my
DG-1000S in for
=
a DG-1001e neo with FES, but so far my DG-1000S co-
owners aren't ready for
=
that upgrade.
=20
I'm not very experienced with winches and certainly not
an expert on
such=
matters, but I think there may be a nice market for a very
small electric
=
winch designed to get an FES-equipped sailplane just up to
100 feet =E2=80=
=93 high enough to use the FES to climb to the first
thermal. Even
self-la=
unch capable FES sailplanes would benefit from a small
winch because they
w=
ould save much more of the sailplane's battery for use later
in the flight
=
- since the initial takeoff roll requires a lot of power.
=20
You can see an interesting video showing an FES-
equipped sailplane
taking=
an autotow to about 100 feet he=20
https://youtu.be/pTeNKM2cXQk=20
=20
I would think that an electric winch could get a glider to
100 feet
quite=
easily and be quite small and relatively inexpensive. The
rope needed
wou=
ld be much less, and the drum could be much smaller
=E2=80=93 I imagine.
=20
A "level ground bungee launch" to 100 feet would be
another interesting
o=
ption. But I would think that would have risks from by the
bungee
snapping=
or coming loose and hurting someone.=20
=20
Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of
gliding...
=20
Best Regards,
=20
Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

Stupid question: since FES (Front Electric Sustainer)
sailplanes have a
pro=
peller in the front, with very little ground clearance, how
would you
attac=
h a tow rope without interfering with the propeller?
Perhaps you mean a
wi=
nch launch with the propeller stowed, turning on the FES
after releasing
fr=
om the rope. Seems like doing that at 100 feet is not a
great idea, even
t=
hough FES startup is a lot simpler and quicker than with
other sailplane
mo=
tor arrangements. So at the least you'd want to go to 300
feet or so -
hig=
h enough to try and start the FES, and land safely if that
does not work.

And as Herb said, for a good acceleration at the start,
you'd still need a
=
lot of power (at least 100 KW), nothing "mini" about that.

Yeah I'd like to hear more about (full-size) electric winches
in
developmen=
t. With the progress being made on electric cars (and
trucks) and their
ba=
tteries that seems like the future of winches.

Really? You think "progress being made on electric cars and
their batteries"? Sure there are a lot of them out there but
the battery technology they use has been around for years.
Lots of fancy batteries in development labs and in
Universities but none in any commercially available vehicle.

On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 18:46:18 +0000, Dave Walsh wrote:

Really? You think "progress being made on electric cars and their
batteries"? Sure there are a lot of them out there but the battery
technology they use has been around for years. Lots of fancy batteries
in development labs and in Universities but none in any commercially
available vehicle.


A new technology has just been announced, which uses sodium anodes and a
lithium-glass electrolyte. It claims greater durability, much less
flammability, and a considerably longer life than Lithium-ion.

Normally I'd go off muttering abouyt pipe-dreams except that the lead
researcher is John Goodenough. He has an excellent track record in this
field since he was in the team that developed the lithium-ion battery,
and shared the Nobel Prize for Chemistry for that. Says this tech could
be commercially successful in 5 - 10 years. The story is he

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/03/02/
canadian_firm_to_develop_goodenoughs_new_glass_bat tery/


=====

But, back to electric winches.

Here's the website for what looks to be the most successful German
electric winch maker:

http://www.startwinde.de/

The main site is in German, so if you don't read German, start here
instead:

https://onkelmaggus.beepworld.de/index.htm

This winch is basically a purpose-designed trailer containing a couple of
cable drums, a 200 kW electric motor and a big pile of lead-acid truck
batteries to act as a buffer between it and a 12-20 kW mains connection.

We looked at this system a few years back and decided that running cables
to the various places where we park our winch depending on the wind
direction was too expensive to justify going electric, so now we have a
Skylaunch and a Tost they refurbished, both running on LPG.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On 3/4/20 3:12 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 18:46:18 +0000, Dave Walsh wrote:

Really? You think "progress being made on electric cars and their
batteries"? Sure there are a lot of them out there but the battery
technology they use has been around for years. Lots of fancy batteries
in development labs and in Universities but none in any commercially
available vehicle.


A new technology has just been announced, which uses sodium anodes and a
lithium-glass electrolyte. It claims greater durability, much less
flammability, and a considerably longer life than Lithium-ion.

Normally I'd go off muttering abouyt pipe-dreams except that the lead
researcher is John Goodenough. He has an excellent track record in this
field since he was in the team that developed the lithium-ion battery,
and shared the Nobel Prize for Chemistry for that. Says this tech could
be commercially successful in 5 - 10 years. The story is he

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/03/02/
canadian_firm_to_develop_goodenoughs_new_glass_bat tery/



Yep, that's been making the rounds again recently. Announced in 2016,
supposed to be commercially viable in another 5-10 years. The good
thing is Goodenough is 97 years old, and unlikely to be around to take
criticism if it doesn't pay off.

In the mean time, we've got lithium-sulfer, lithium-carbon dioxide,
lithium graphene, the mysterious IBM seawater battery, semi-solidstate
lithium, and others to look forward to. Which one will deliver the
miraculous increase in capacity in a couple years that the electric
plane makers keep talking about?

I see the Germans burned up their Lilium eVTOL "jet" prototype a few
days ago, 36 ducted fans on something targeted as an electric flying
taxi cab. If they're going to keep burning up prototypes, maybe they
should do it in Greta Thundberg's back yeard, so she can experience what
a fully involved lithium battery fire actually smells like.

On Wed, 04 Mar 2020 15:54:48 -0700, kinsell wrote:

Yep, that's been making the rounds again recently. Announced in 2016,
supposed to be commercially viable in another 5-10 years. The good
thing is Goodenough is 97 years old, and unlikely to be around to take
criticism if it doesn't pay off.

Only four years? So what?

Need I remind you that work started on lithium-ion cells in 1977,
Goodenough and Mizushima demonstrated a rechargeable Li-ion cell in 1979
and Yazami demonstrated the carbon anode in 1980, but it still took
another 11 years before Sony released the first commercial battery in
1991. Thats 14 years in development.

The first device I owned with a Li-ion battery was a Compaq iPAQ 3630 -
iPAQs weren't released until 2000, with the 3630 appearing in 2001 - a
mere 24 years after the first Li-ion battery was demonstrated.

So, I think we need a teensy bit more evidence than "its taken 4 years
already and still not on the shelves" to discount glass-technology
lithium batteries as vapour-ware.

I see the Germans burned up their Lilium eVTOL "jet" prototype a few
days ago, 36 ducted fans on something targeted as an electric flying
taxi cab. If they're going to keep burning up prototypes, maybe they
should do it in Greta Thundberg's back yeard, so she can experience what
a fully involved lithium battery fire actually smells like.

If you store a lot of energy in a battery containing a flammable
electrolyte, mistreat it in some way (short, overheat or puncture -
doesn't matter which) you shouldn't be surprised if bad things happen:
several crashed Teslas have caught fire hours after the crash happened.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 10:06:50 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 12:38:57 AM UTC-5, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

This is just a thought...

I’ve recently been extremely interested in the FES (Front Electric Sustainer) sailplanes. They are becoming quite popular. Even very high-performance racing sailplanes like the Ventus 3 are being sold with FES systems installed.

I am the U.S. dealer for DG/LS and they offer the LS8e neo with FES and the new DG-1001e neo with FES prototype will fly very soon. It will be the first 2-seat sailplane with FES. I would love to trade my DG-1000S in for a DG-1001e neo with FES, but so far my DG-1000S co-owners aren't ready for that upgrade.

I'm not very experienced with winches and certainly not an expert on such matters, but I think there may be a nice market for a very small electric winch designed to get an FES-equipped sailplane just up to 100 feet – high enough to use the FES to climb to the first thermal. Even self-launch capable FES sailplanes would benefit from a small winch because they would save much more of the sailplane's battery for use later in the flight - since the initial takeoff roll requires a lot of power.

You can see an interesting video showing an FES-equipped sailplane taking an autotow to about 100 feet he
https://youtu.be/pTeNKM2cXQk

I would think that an electric winch could get a glider to 100 feet quite easily and be quite small and relatively inexpensive. The rope needed would be much less, and the drum could be much smaller – I imagine.

A "level ground bungee launch" to 100 feet would be another interesting option. But I would think that would have risks from by the bungee snapping or coming loose and hurting someone.

Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding...

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

Stupid question: since FES (Front Electric Sustainer) sailplanes have a propeller in the front, with very little ground clearance, how would you attach a tow rope without interfering with the propeller? Perhaps you mean a winch launch with the propeller stowed, turning on the FES after releasing from the rope. Seems like doing that at 100 feet is not a great idea, even though FES startup is a lot simpler and quicker than with other sailplane motor arrangements. So at the least you'd want to go to 300 feet or so - high enough to try and start the FES, and land safely if that does not work.

And as Herb said, for a good acceleration at the start, you'd still need a lot of power (at least 100 KW), nothing "mini" about that.

Yeah I'd like to hear more about (full-size) electric winches in development. With the progress being made on electric cars (and trucks) and their batteries that seems like the future of winches.

400ft would be the minimum safe working altitude IMVHO.

On 3/4/20 7:38 AM, Paul Remde wrote:

Any thoughts...? I'm just dreaming about the future of gliding...

Speaking as a winch instructor. One requirement for a safe winch launch
is for the glider to always be in a position to make a safe landing in
the event of a launch failure. Thus the launch profile must be such that
by the time that you are too high to land straight ahead you have
sufficient height to fly a small circuit and land back on the runway.
You also want some overlap between the two options to take the stress
out of decision making. If you winching into zero or low winds, a 180
deg turn and landing "downwind" is also an option.

If you are winch launching a sustainer, the requirement must be for the
glider to launch, release, attempt an engine start and then still be in
a position to make a safe landing if the engine fails.

What you do not want, is to make a habit of releasing over the downwind
threshold, to low to fly a circuit back over the runway. (Yes this is
accepted for aerotow. But the launch failure rate is much lower and
simulated launch failure training is done in light winds which allow
landing downwind.)

One option is a conventional ground launch, car or winch to say 1000'
AGL. Glider can then fly a circuit, start the engine on downwind and be
in a position to land if the engine does not start. This would work for
any sustainer technology. The ground launch is an "existing art" and you
can get training and ratings for it. There are also established clubs
with the means to provide the launch.

Next option is the "launch to 100'". This must be done such that you can
release, attempt an engine start and still be able to land straight
ahead if it fails. A variation involves deploying and even starting the
engine before launch, with a pylon mounted engine, like a jet, but not
possible with FES. This saves some time for the engine start and reduces
the risk of a start failure. These launches have been done, but you wont
easily find an "approved procedure" accepted by manufacturers and
authorities etc.

Last comment, is do not assume that FES cannot suffer a launch failure.
They have safety control systems and all it would take is one contact
breaker "trip" to spoil your day. Also remember that any battery energy
you use to get from 100' to "start of soaring" will not be available for
a retrieve later in the day.

But yes, this could be the future of gliding ...

Ian