ZeroAvia's Val Miftakhov makes a compelling case for hydrogen aviation

On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 23:36:54 -0000, wrote:


To be totally candid, I envision photo-voltaic powered liquid H2
production through electrolysis employing cryo-cooling technology for
use in fuel-cell electric generation to power electric motors, be they
attached to wheels on the road, or propellers in the air. I'm
certainly no engineer, but the limited research I've done appears to
support this being feasible, with the possibility of 6Li use for
longer term H2 storage.

As a real engineer, I call this an utter pipe dream.


That is understandable. It is certainly a dream. Thank you for your
professional opinion.


Lots of things are "feasible", but that does not mean they are
economic, practical or even legal.

It is feasible to make a motor from a birthday candle, a permanet
magnet, and a Zippo lighter flint, but you will not find such
motors powering anything other than a physics class demonstration.


Well, consider that Michael Faraday created the first electric motor
with a piece of wire dangling into a cup of mercury. That ultimately
lead directly to Tesla electric automobiles achieving astounding
~three-second zero-to-sixty-mph automobile acceleration.

Even the brilliant scientist may not appreciate what he has
discovered. To wit, Heinrich Hertz, after discovering and proving the
existence of radio waves, postulated,

"I do not think that the radio waves I have discovered will have
any practical application."

He apparently lacked the vision of a less brilliant and poorly
schooled very young Guglielmo Marconi who at the turn of the
nineteenth century virtually single-handedly established a worldwide
communications network powered by electric sparks! The power of a
single determined person can be remarkable.

Today, in the age of instant worldwide communication via mobile
radio-telephones, Hertz's statement appears shortsighted indeed. But
his researches with extremely limited to nonexistent electric
apparatus resources available at the time (1880s) are absolutely
remarkable for their insight and inventiveness. I guess, we all have
blind spots at times.



snip

6Li is used to store hydrogen safely and efficiently. It is also
one of the key components in making a thermal-nuclear weapon, but
by itself is not dangerous. Because of crony capitalism and
ignorant politicians, the US government has banned 6Li and the
buying and selling of it. However, the making of 6Li H yourself
with your own particle accelerator IS NOT!

Right, airports that won't sell MOGAS are going to install particle
accelerators to produce a key component for nuclear weapons?


If you had watched the video, you'd be aware that it is the legal
system that necessitates the use of a particle accelerator to produce
6Li, as its sale is currently prohibited because it can be a
constituent of fission technology. If that law were to be rescinded,
an on-site accelerator wouldn't be necessary to create 6Li.

You are mixing apples and oranges.

ALL the methods of producing 6Li are complex and expensive but
the main point is that 6Li is a key compenent to make nuclear
weapons and all the major powers are opposed to it's production.


Okay. I haven't done any research on 6Li. It just looked like a
possible alternative H2 storage medium; of course, it's stable (not
radioactive). It's not really a necessary component for LH2 system
I'm proposing.


Utter fantasy.


Agreed, it's a fantastic idea.

Fantastic as in pixie dust, flying bull frogs, unicorns,
and pots of gold at the end of rainbows.


Perhaps. Lacking any supporting objective evidence/documentation to
support your allegation, it's difficult to take it seriously. Perhaps,
you'd care to provide quantifiable facts that support your contention.


So, I'm firmly on the side of the dreamers to lead us into the future.

I'm sure that is going to happen, all while riding unicorns.

I would dearly love to see your engineering analysis

My detailed engineering analysis can be had for $150/hr.

My back of the envelope analysis is that there are far too many
engineering, safety, economic, and international political issues
over making thermonuclear bomb components for this to EVER happen.


Ah, free advice; worth every penny. :-)

When you mention 'safety,' I hope you're not thinking Hindenberg
Disaster. After all, we routinely use highly flammable, if not
explosive, gasoline with reasonable safety in our current
transportation vehicles.

When you mention 'economic,' I agree there will be significant expense
in developing a network of fueling stations, however Nikola Motor
Company intends to just that for compressed H2. See:
https://nikolamotor.com/hydrogen


https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default...2019_Final.pdf
As of May 28, 2019, California's hydrogen fueling network consists
of 414 open retail hydrogen fueling stations, five more than
reported at the same time last year (at which time the Burbank
station was pre-emptively counted, but is not currently included
in open station reporting).Jul 1, 2019

The 'political' issues you mention may be significant for the use of
6Li, but 6Li is not crucial for the system I envision. Let's forget
about it for now.

So, how many hours would you estimate you might require to do a
serious analysis of the requirements to electrically split water into
its component molecules, and produce LH2 from that pure H3 with a
cryo-cooler, and quantify a comparison of LH2 feeding fuel-cells to
produce motive electric power, taking into consideration the reduced
weight/mass of LH2 (density: 0.07099 g/cm3) compared to kerosene
(density: 0.78–0.81 g/cm3)?

It's always a pleasure to debate technical matters with an intelligent
and knowledgeable person as you are. Perhaps we can each learn
something.

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 23:36:54 -0000, wrote:

snip

Lots of things are "feasible", but that does not mean they are
economic, practical or even legal.

It is feasible to make a motor from a birthday candle, a permanet
magnet, and a Zippo lighter flint, but you will not find such
motors powering anything other than a physics class demonstration.


Well, consider that Michael Faraday created the first electric motor
with a piece of wire dangling into a cup of mercury. That ultimately
lead directly to Tesla electric automobiles achieving astounding
~three-second zero-to-sixty-mph automobile acceleration.

Utter nonsense.

BTW, the Tesla came out dead last in over all quality.

Even the brilliant scientist may not appreciate what he has
discovered. To wit, Heinrich Hertz, after discovering and proving the
existence of radio waves, postulated,

"I do not think that the radio waves I have discovered will have
any practical application."

Yawn.

snip romanticized arm waving

snip

Fantastic as in pixie dust, flying bull frogs, unicorns,
and pots of gold at the end of rainbows.


Perhaps. Lacking any supporting objective evidence/documentation to
support your allegation, it's difficult to take it seriously. Perhaps,
you'd care to provide quantifiable facts that support your contention.

Which part?

That all the world's government's are opposed to the production
of 6Li or the utter fantasy that airports that won't install MOGAS
tanks are going to install particle accerators (also highly
regulated)?


snip

Ah, free advice; worth every penny. :-)

When you mention 'safety,' I hope you're not thinking Hindenberg
Disaster. After all, we routinely use highly flammable, if not
explosive, gasoline with reasonable safety in our current
transportation vehicles.

What part of key component to thermonuclear bombs are you failing
to understand?

When you mention 'economic,' I agree there will be significant expense
in developing a network of fueling stations, however Nikola Motor
Company intends to just that for compressed H2. See:
https://nikolamotor.com/hydrogen

Whoop de ****ing do.

There are 12 MOGAS stations less than a mile from KCCB which has
a large number of aircraft that can run on MOGAS yet KCCB does
not sell MOGAS.

snip irrelevant crap about auto fuel stations

The 'political' issues you mention may be significant for the use of
6Li, but 6Li is not crucial for the system I envision. Let's forget
about it for now.

So, how many hours would you estimate you might require to do a
serious analysis of the requirements to electrically split water into
its component molecules, and produce LH2 from that pure H3 with a
cryo-cooler, and quantify a comparison of LH2 feeding fuel-cells to
produce motive electric power, taking into consideration the reduced
weight/mass of LH2 (density: 0.07099 g/cm3) compared to kerosene
(density: 0.78?0.81 g/cm3)?

Already done, many, many, many times by many, many people.

And it is orders of magnitude more expensive than a MOGAS tank,
pump, and credit card reader.


--
Jim Pennino

Larry Dighera wrote:

snip

6Li is used to store hydrogen safely and efficiently.

If you really think lithium hydride is safe and efficient,
you need to read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_hydride

snip remaining


--
Jim Pennino

Larry Dighera wrote:

snip

Former Area 51 employee Bob Lazar is interviewed by Visual Effects

Bob Lazar is a kook with criminal convictions for felony pandering
and violating the Federal Hazardous Substances Act for shipping
restricted chemicals across state lines.

His supposed employment at a Nellis Air Force Base subsidiary has also
been discredited by skeptics, as well as by the United States Air Force
itself.

Universities from which he claims to hold degrees show no record of him,
and supposed former workplaces have disavowed him.

He is also a conspiracy theorist.

There is mo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Lazar

snip remaining

--
Jim Pennino

Larry Dighera writes:

On Mon, 22 Jun 2020 12:56:07 -0700, Daniel wrote:

Larry Dighera writes:

https://newatlas.com/aircraft/interv...rogen-aviation

ZeroAvia's Val Miftakhov makes a compelling case for hydrogen
aviation
By Loz Blain
June 15, 2020

One of the two ZeroAvia prototype six-seater Piper Malibu airplanes
ZeroAvia
https://newatlas.com/aircraft/interv...tion#gallery:1
View 2 Images

Everybody but the oil companies wants electric aviation to take off as
quickly as possible, if you'll pardon the pun. The aviation industry
is a huge polluter, and electric aircraft will not only be cleaner,
but significantly cheaper in terms of energy and maintenance. The
problem is batteries, whose terrible energy density is simply not up
to any practical aeronautical purpose at this stage, and there's no
guarantee that the vast amounts of research going on in the battery
sector will change that any time soon.

If:

1. They create a hydrogen infrastructure that exists across the US at
most GA airports
2. They create high performance 300+ HP engines running on Hydrogen
3. 1 for 1 replacement of fuel tanks to IMPROVE the plane's performance
4. Conduct this upgrade at a cost similar to a replacement engine

Sign me up. At this point, hydrogen fuel cells in cars have failed
hard.


That's because current fuel-cell automobiles use dirty gaseous H2 fuel
derived from petroleum. Liquid H2 liberated from water by hydrolysis
has the potential to power aircraft efficiently and cleanly either
burned in your (300-hp) Continental IO-520-K or (300-hp) Lycoming
IO-540-K1E5.

But there are is new fuel-cell technology on the horizon:
https://hypoint.us/


Meanwhile, electric powerplants on planes are in the infancy. My
bellanca super viking can take me comfortably 1000nm on full tanks.

Daniel,


Thank you for your comment. But, it would appear that you are doing
the equivalent of comparing a ability of a newborn baby to that of a
full grown adult. Consider this:

I wasn't really comparing that tech to the engine on my plane or any
other plane. The tech is a far cry, distant cry, from replacing anything
equivalent on an airplane with a tried and true engine. It's my way of
saying "I'll keep what I have thank you." Just in the last few years
there's been a push to install diesel engines so that we could go to jet
fuel. Now hydrogen? I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

"Your analysis fails to consider liquid H2's ~3X better energy
density compared to gasoline. Further, cryo-coolers are able to
condense liquid H2 at atmospheric pressure with very modest power
requirements (~100W). Liquid H2 overcomes the high-pressure
storage requirement for H2 gas. So, a membrane hydrolyzer powered
from a photo-voltaic array employing a cryo-cooler
https://trc.nist.gov/cryogenics/cryocoolers.html could produce
"green" liquid H2 fuel for fuel-cell use rather inexpensively. To
wit, the US Navy flew a liquid H2 powered aircraft for three days:

I made no analysis. Just giving my opinion. I'm glad someone's
optimistic about all of this.


https://www.nrl.navy.mil/lasr/sites/...31-4608%5D.pdf
And then there is this possible option at improving hydrolysis
efficiency:
http://rexresearch.com/microwavehydr...ehydrogen.html

If you object to liquid H2 storage, here's a novel technology:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ytg23mDd1a4
Former Area 51 employee Bob Lazar is interviewed by Visual Effects
Supervisor Jon Farhat. In this video, they discuss what H1
(hydrogen) is, how it is created and it’s potential in the
automotive sector. In addition, Bob show us he has his own
particle accelerator which he uses to create 6Li (lithium-6) H
(hydride) for H1 storage.

6Li is used to store hydrogen safely and efficiently. It is also
one of the key components in making a thermal-nuclear weapon, but
by itself is not dangerous. Because of crony capitalism and
ignorant politicians, the US government has banned 6Li and the
buying and selling of it. However, the making of 6Li H yourself
with your own particle accelerator IS NOT!

Bob uses solar panels to power an H1 generator which produces H1
from H2O (water). For the safe and efficient storage of the
dangerous H1, 6Li H must be created with a particle accelerator
and used for H1 storage in high compression tanks. With the H1
generator, H1 is forced into the 6Li H tanks through the syringe
compression process. FYI, „hydrogen vehicles� are also known as
„fuel cell� vehicles.

Bob is the owner of United Nuclear Scientific and
Switch2Hydrogen. Jon is the owner of ODEMAX and director of this
video."

All that said, I envy you buzzing around in your luxuriant Viking even
if it is made of wood. Have fun, and inspect for dry-rot. :-)

Best regards,
Larry Dighera

--
Daniel

Visit me at: gopher://gcpp.world