Scary story about landing on a Lake Tahoe golf course

On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 9:14:08 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
I checked this swamp some 5 years ago and concluded the golf course to be safer assuming it is clear.
However it is worth checking it again, as well as the other fairways, the more options the better, but I conquer with everything else said. unless we find a real safe landing spot, better not taking this risk again. “sergio’s Elevator� works only 99% of the time... (probably less than 99%).

Ramy

Just doing the math: Brockway summit at pavement level is 7200, that is a road cut and there are trees and power lines. The shoulder of Martis Peak is 8000, so a reasonable altitude with a small margin is 8500 crossing that ridge. If you got sink you could move further west were it is lower and maybe still get through. It is 10.3 miles from the north end of Marlette lake, call it 55,000 ft, or 1360 ft dropped in a 40:1. So 9860 is a low margin glide at MC0. This is why I use 10,500 in my 50:1 glider.

On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 8:43:36 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 8:08:30 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 10:27:27 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
I have spent a lot of my glides across Lake Tahoe looking at the water options. The problem is, anywhere near shore and where you might be able to swim to shore and then rescue a glider is full of boats, jet skis, piers, paddle boards, kayaks, swimmers and so on. The water is not an easy option. Ramy's golf course is incredibly narrow, surrounded by trees, and has golfers on it. From google maps, the swampy area between the road and Ramy's golf course looks possible. Has anyone looked at that? One solid walk away from it option in the basin would bar awfully nice.
John Cochrane BB

I agree that the water close to shore, especially around Kings Beach is pretty cluttered. One possibility is the driving range, as it will have no one on it - but it looks pretty short. I've thought about the swampy area you refer to, will go walk that next time I am up. By far the best option is to stay above Marlette Lake and only turn left with good altitude.

Thanks. I'll also find an excuse to go walk that swampy area. And I think this story reinforces conventional wisdom: Don't try it unless you see wind on the water at Lake Tahoe. Don't leave Marlette Lake without a good Mc 3 + glide past Brockaway summit. Think real hard if you want to do this before glide to Carson disappears. And... Let's hear more rules of thumb from locals. I think if nothing else Ramy's story emphasizes, think through this decision before you're faced with it.

John Cochrane

Les Seybold used to tell stories about landing on Kings Beach, and also aero retrieving off of it! Long time ago.... My rule of thumb is to be over Marlette Lake at 10,500. I did make it from 10,200 one day in a 15 meter but there was more pucker factor than I like. Pilots with a much higher risk tolerance than me say you can make it from 9200' at Marlette. Looks like Ramy was about 7800. The trouble with 9200 is it is getting pretty low to turn right, you have to turn left and go back through Spooner. If the wind is blowing you may lose 1000'+ on your escape to Carson from the downwash. And while the air is benign *almost* all the time over the lake, but there are rare days when you can get sustained 2 - 3 kts down when leaving the east shore. I know two pilots who (more than once) ridge soared Daydreams back up high enough to clear Brockaway (as Ramy attempted). This does not fit my risk tolerance profile.

Wind streaks on the lake are not by themselves sufficiently telling. The people who used to use the Elevator would tune to the Truckee AWOS and listen for SW winds at 10+. For some reason SW seemed to work better than W, and it was very west on Saturday - many gliders landed on runway 29. The best part of that ridge is a funnel that faces SW, as are the best faces further along. Whatever you do, don't attempt to ridge soar Snow Mountain just to the SE of Marlette - there are pieces of Joe's glider still there.

This is a great and informative post. Thanks.

Daydreams are the little spur marked with a hang glider takeoff, N of king's beach? Well, I guess if you're desperate it could be a place to park and contemplate your fate. Moutain shoulders have never worked for me. Maybe with a good S component.

These days, a good glide computer set to Mc 4 glide compensates for a lot of altitude rules!

Yeah, the back higher ridge at snow looks inviting -- don't be invited.

The goal is a few more options. Yes, the golf course, if empty. If not, we need at least a place to crash and walk away from it. I put the swamp in that category, but it needs walking to find the post, fence, etc. that one can see from satellite photo.

I'm still in the category that I have to feel the ridge lift before losing glide to Carson over the back. Of course a little iron courage in behind my shoulders helps a lot to give up early!

John Cochrane

On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 5:04:40 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
This is a great and informative post. Thanks.

Daydreams are the little spur marked with a hang glider takeoff, N of king's beach? Well, I guess if you're desperate it could be a place to park and contemplate your fate. Moutain shoulders have never worked for me. Maybe with a good S component.

These days, a good glide computer set to Mc 4 glide compensates for a lot of altitude rules!

Yeah, the back higher ridge at snow looks inviting -- don't be invited.

The goal is a few more options. Yes, the golf course, if empty. If not, we need at least a place to crash and walk away from it. I put the swamp in that category, but it needs walking to find the post, fence, etc. that one can see from satellite photo.

I'm still in the category that I have to feel the ridge lift before losing glide to Carson over the back. Of course a little iron courage in behind my shoulders helps a lot to give up early!

John Cochrane

The golf course shouldn't even be an option, yet that is viewed as Option B (Option A being, of course, making it back to Truckee). It gets down to a simple reward vs risk analysis. The reward is not having to pay for an aero-retrieve from Carson. The risk is badly injuring or killing a golfer or course worker. As a golfer, I can tell you that they can appear out of nowhere without warning. The same goes for course workers. Maybe you apply the 99% rule to them w/o their knowledge. Really, if you killed or hurt someone doing this would you consider that to be a wise decision?

Tom

We have a couple of water landings per decade. Nobody was ever killed or hurt, but from our statistics it can be quite expensive. One glider had leading edge of wing split open, flaps can be damaged, especially proper landing flaps. Canopy is often cracked. Wet instruments are dead instantly, or latest in few years.

Schempp policy for water landing is that all pushrods get changed in the gliders, they cannot risk corrosion and resulting ADs 10-20 years later. I once asked factory guy how much this is, answer was that around 20k euros (lots of holes in wings).

On 7/30/20 3:38 AM, krasw wrote:
We have a couple of water landings per decade. Nobody was ever killed or hurt, but from our statistics it can be quite expensive. One glider had leading edge of wing split open, flaps can be damaged, especially proper landing flaps. Canopy is often cracked. Wet instruments are dead instantly, or latest in few years.

Schempp policy for water landing is that all pushrods get changed in the gliders, they cannot risk corrosion and resulting ADs 10-20 years later. I once asked factory guy how much this is, answer was that around 20k euros (lots of holes in wings).



Doubt there was much left of this glider after it was washed up on the
rocks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaTE4zT-8Is&t=55s

On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 5:38:54 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
We have a couple of water landings per decade. Nobody was ever killed or hurt, but from our statistics it can be quite expensive. One glider had leading edge of wing split open, flaps can be damaged, especially proper landing flaps. Canopy is often cracked. Wet instruments are dead instantly, or latest in few years.

Schempp policy for water landing is that all pushrods get changed in the gliders, they cannot risk corrosion and resulting ADs 10-20 years later. I once asked factory guy how much this is, answer was that around 20k euros (lots of holes in wings).

If you trust Schempp, Dave Nadler Arcus M broken apart in the air 2 years ago and we still have no answer ?

On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 5:04:40 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
This is a great and informative post. Thanks.

Daydreams are the little spur marked with a hang glider takeoff, N of king's beach? Well, I guess if you're desperate it could be a place to park and contemplate your fate. Moutain shoulders have never worked for me. Maybe with a good S component.

These days, a good glide computer set to Mc 4 glide compensates for a lot of altitude rules!

Yeah, the back higher ridge at snow looks inviting -- don't be invited.

The goal is a few more options. Yes, the golf course, if empty. If not, we need at least a place to crash and walk away from it. I put the swamp in that category, but it needs walking to find the post, fence, etc. that one can see from satellite photo.

I'm still in the category that I have to feel the ridge lift before losing glide to Carson over the back. Of course a little iron courage in behind my shoulders helps a lot to give up early!

John Cochrane

Yes, Daydreams is the ridge pointing SSW towards Kings Beach that the hang gliders use. It is better the higher on it you are, and better in a SW wind.. Much of the historical mythology of saves across the lake come from years past, when the wind tended to be more dependably SW in the afternoon. In the last 5 - 10 years or so, this has become less prevalent, with more W and even N winds.

Like you, the iron thermals in the back have made me more conservative in these situations, not more aggressive as many seem to believe. I know that the retrieve from Carson (starting the engine above the pattern) will be quick, easy, and safe. But even an air retrieve from Carson is quick, easy, and safe compared to collecting the parts of your glider from the fairway for reassembly at the repair shop.

Is any long flight really worth busting your glider or your ass?

On 7/29/2020 9:43 AM, John Cochrane wrote:
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 8:08:30 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 10:27:27 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
I have spent a lot of my glides across Lake Tahoe looking at the water options. The problem is, anywhere near shore and where you might be able to swim to shore and then rescue a glider is full of boats, jet skis, piers, paddle boards, kayaks, swimmers and so on. The water is not an easy option. Ramy's golf course is incredibly narrow, surrounded by trees, and has golfers on it. From google maps, the swampy area between the road and Ramy's golf course looks possible. Has anyone looked at that? One solid walk away from it option in the basin would bar awfully nice.
John Cochrane BB
I agree that the water close to shore, especially around Kings Beach is pretty cluttered. One possibility is the driving range, as it will have no one on it - but it looks pretty short. I've thought about the swampy area you refer to, will go walk that next time I am up. By far the best option is to stay above Marlette Lake and only turn left with good altitude.
Thanks. I'll also find an excuse to go walk that swampy area. And I think this story reinforces conventional wisdom: Don't try it unless you see wind on the water at Lake Tahoe. Don't leave Marlette Lake without a good Mc 3 + glide past Brockaway summit. Think real hard if you want to do this before glide to Carson disappears. And... Let's hear more rules of thumb from locals. I think if nothing else Ramy's story emphasizes, think through this decision before you're faced with it.

John Cochrane


--
Dan, 5J

How can you land out on a flight with a glider that is averaging 83 to 1 glide over the entire flight?? (See the OLC link at top.)To me that would be almost like having a motor. Seems like really bad planning.