The Apology

Chip,
"...have become weak and lost focus on what is important, wasting time on petty stuff [yeah, this mutual respect stuff is pretty f***ing petty]"
1. There is no need to use swear words to make your point (asterisks do not hide the real word).

2. I have not and will not support anything that promotes disrespecting women.

3. I do not think there was any "malicious attempt" by the ad submitter to squeeze in a sexist nostalgic ad. Nowadays, everyone is super conscious not to do anything to offend anyone, where even innocent things may be deemed evil.

4. I showed my wife the image and she did NOT find anything objectionable with it.

5. And yes, I still stand firmly by my opinion "...have become weak and lost focus on what is important, wasting time on petty stuff". - America, as a nation is destroying itself from within. We will NOT need our enemies (Russia, Iran, N Korea, etc.) to do it for us. If there is anything to worry, whine, or complain about, there are much bigger things than the image in question.

Just to make sure I clearly understand your positions he

A group of women write to the editors of a small magazine expressing their displeasure at an advertisement. They are taken seriously, and a considerate apology is published in the same magazine.

-"America has lost focus on what is important and is wasting time on petty stuff! America, as a nation is destroying itself from within. We will NOT need our enemies (Russia, Iran, N Korea, etc.) to do it for us. If there is anything to worry, whine, or complain about, there are much bigger things than the image in question."

Somebody uses asterisks in place of writing what you consider fowl language (because clearly the word was duck...see what I did there?)

-"THERE IS NO NEED TO USE SWEAR WORDS TO MAKE YOUR POINT"

People on here compared women to Nazis, Fascists, whores, and wished they were more subservient because they were willing to voice their discomfort about an advertisement.

-"........................"

Did I get that right?

Dan emailed me about the women in the picture. Sorry buddy, but couldn't get through your spam filter. However:

This is a group photo at a gathering of women soaring pilots for a building workshop. They are holding a rudder that has yet to be covered. These ladies are from many nations making me think their loyalty to each other is greater than the dangerous nationalism sweeping the world at this time.

There was only one true femanazi. But man, did she have a nice whip!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/18NbBTdNCugviDLt6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3WqHnp1p3Epz1itZ7

Unhappy with this discussion? (tired doesn't count) Vaguely troubled by some of the things said but worried about losing your "man" card by defending a bunch of shrill, hypersensitive harpies determined to knock down the SSA on the way to installing AOC in the White House and rolling up the U.S. as the next bastion of socialism, presaging North Korea's annexation of California? [OK, I might have gotten a little carried away].

Uncomfortable with the message that women are welcome in soaring only so long as they're attractive (I should probably have listed this last), undemanding, non-threatening, and grateful?

No need to post anything or go on record. This is America: you can BUY your way out of feeling guilty. Make a contribution to the WSPA. Cindy's post has the link (above).

Yeah, I know some of you already did in the recent past. The difference? This donation will not specifically be earmarked for the U.S. Team. That was easy: we all knew they had a good chance of getting on the medal stand in Australia (which was the case).

This would be for women who don't [yet] make the headlines. They're just ordinary people interested in soaring who enjoy the company of other soaring pilots who have faced similar challenges. And after some of the disturbing opinions expressed in this thread, I'm sure many of them would be reassured that the majority of male soaring pilots are welcoming, even if we occasionally stumble unintentionally.

Chip Bearden
JB

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 5:39:06 PM UTC-4, Chip Bearden wrote:
Unhappy with this discussion? (tired doesn't count) Vaguely troubled by some of the things said but worried about losing your "man" card by defending a bunch of shrill, hypersensitive harpies determined to knock down the SSA on the way to installing AOC in the White House and rolling up the U.S. as the next bastion of socialism, presaging North Korea's annexation of California? [OK, I might have gotten a little carried away].

Uncomfortable with the message that women are welcome in soaring only so long as they're attractive (I should probably have listed this last), undemanding, non-threatening, and grateful?

No need to post anything or go on record. This is America: you can BUY your way out of feeling guilty. Make a contribution to the WSPA. Cindy's post has the link (above).

Yeah, I know some of you already did in the recent past. The difference? This donation will not specifically be earmarked for the U.S. Team. That was easy: we all knew they had a good chance of getting on the medal stand in Australia (which was the case).

This would be for women who don't [yet] make the headlines. They're just ordinary people interested in soaring who enjoy the company of other soaring pilots who have faced similar challenges. And after some of the disturbing opinions expressed in this thread, I'm sure many of them would be reassured that the majority of male soaring pilots are welcoming, even if we occasionally stumble unintentionally.

Chip Bearden
JB
Chip, you got more than carried away, you fell into the trap. No need to apologize, you obviously are a good person with your own perceptions, we all have those. Go ahead and slap me down, it has been done before, we met many years ago and I always reflected on your mild gentlemanly personality.
I do not feel any differently about your love for soaring, or your advocation of what we both enjoy, I hope you feel no differently about me. My main objective has been to advance the activity of soaring, hopefully I have done a pretty good job of that. Of those whom know me will tell you that I have soaring in my best interest and not my personal agenda.
I could always take my toys and go home, but advancing and giving back seems to be my agenda at this stage of life. Hopefully after tomorrow I can say Just look at what we did, I will explain later, not on this forum, but privately.
Making assertations of sexism had no place in soaring, that agenda went out a long time ago and that is what most are saying. Many continue to bloviate and cast many views of disparity, but actually we are all on the same page. I think no less of you , I hope you feel no less of me, we just share opposite opinions. I did tow again today and the female, no, I will say lady did better than anyone. Bob

On Saturday, October 24, 2020 at 8:19:12 PM UTC-7, andy l wrote:

Now about defunding the WSPA,
Tough to do. The ladies raise their own funds, very effectively.
(And with support from some fellows who see assisting women into pilot roles as worthwhile.)
And the ladies grow their membership in WSPA too.


With respect to the last point, I really can't see why most people would take this person's complaints seriously
It's almost like a satirical spoof, sending up such misogynistic attitudes, except apparently sincere

These persons.... plural. And plenty publicly, and repetitively.

I have seen female pilot prejudice myself, first-hand and ugly, on many occasions.
Perhaps the most entertaining was wandering into a glider FBO (~20 years ago), at
a prestigious western soaring site, and being asked if I would like to peruse the
glider jewelry counter.
I was staring at the rental rates and thinking about flying while a customer of mine
completed a glider pre-buy inspection.
"While "your guy" is flying, maybe you'd like to choose a bauble as compensation?"
I was first surprised I wasn't recognized, then realized that in my glider contest T-shirt,
I was in the minority -- still -- and being treated like a non-pilot perhaps non-customer.
Rather than become a flaming witch, I demurred. The lady tow/glider pilot with me got outside
without busting her seams, and asked why I went so low key.
I said it wasn't worth the fight that day. I was on a rare road trip, and wanted to relax.
Thoughtless, unintentional, myopic -- but a prejudicial view of women in his lobby.

I am warmed by the long term male friends who at least ( and several with much more effort)
posted to say that it was worth listening to hurt feelings. To make an effort
to understand. A few posted who I might enjoy meeting and befriending.
Personally, I read right past the ad. Perhaps I have become teflon-coated
and inured to the possibility that men and women will view each other as equals.

Do I like strident and contentious confrontations over perceptions in all of society now?
No.
Do I think the letters by women in Soaring were 'pushing an agenda"?
Only one of awareness, and expressing dismay.
Do I like the escalation/aggravation that this thread will create amongst males and females?
No.
Do I think the soaring population is so vast that it can suffer these internal slaps with zero repercussions?
No. At the least, it will hurt some friendships.


Mostly, I concentrate on teaching new people to soar. I try to make them feel safe
as a student, free to ask any questions without ridicule. Even today, I said several times,
"I don't know -- is a safe answer." I was blessed to have two men and two women
( one a 13 year old girl) as early students. 6 flights, one a soaring flight of 1.2 hrs,
and climb rates of 300-500 fpm. Two hawks and a gaggle of buzzards. The teenager
got to dance across the thermal from her host/friend while he climbed the 1-26.
She videoed it.
Those are the moments I hold in close and dear.
The rest I try to let blow away on the dust.

I don't care about correct attribution of the aphorism,
but maybe this is why women have avoided this thread.
Don't wrestle with the pigs. You just get dirty and they like it.

Few men are 'pigs'. But those few might cloud the perception of swine.

Cindy B

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 3:11:38 AM UTC-4, Cindy Brickner wrote:

I have seen female pilot prejudice myself, first-hand and ugly, on many occasions.
Perhaps the most entertaining was wandering into a glider FBO (~20 years ago), at
a prestigious western soaring site, and being asked if I would like to peruse the
glider jewelry counter.
I was staring at the rental rates and thinking about flying while a customer of mine
completed a glider pre-buy inspection.
"While "your guy" is flying, maybe you'd like to choose a bauble as compensation?"
I was first surprised I wasn't recognized, then realized that in my glider contest T-shirt,
I was in the minority -- still -- and being treated like a non-pilot perhaps non-customer.
Rather than become a flaming witch, I demurred. The lady tow/glider pilot with me got outside
without busting her seams, and asked why I went so low key.
I said it wasn't worth the fight that day. I was on a rare road trip, and wanted to relax.
Thoughtless, unintentional, myopic -- but a prejudicial view of women in his lobby.

Next time, try it my way: warmly and without a trace of annoyance introduce yourself.

T8

Next time, try it my way: warmly and without a trace of annoyance introduce yourself.

T8

Evan, next time, try it the new enlightened way: warmly and without a trace of condescension or presumption, inquire of Cindy for more details about what happened and how she conducted herself that day before judging (and insulting) her. Your assumption that this was somehow her fault says everything about what's wrong with this thread.

Years ago (OK, decades), I showed up for a big spring contest with my new ASW 24 after being out of soaring for a few years. I had met the contest manager in the past but he didn't seem to remember me because when I asked about tiedown spots, he brushed me off fairly rudely. I was a little startled but, hey, this was his contest so I stepped back. About that time, Rudy Mozer came rushing over and greeted me like a long-lost friend (which we were; we went back to the 1960s). All of a sudden, the contest manager was treating me like a VIP. I thought it was funny. But if every time I showed up for a contest I had to explain I was a pilot and not a spectator, it would probalby get old pretty soon. I hope I would behave properly each time but I also hope I would be forgiven for occasionally expressing frustration, not that anything Cindy said implied that she did so in this case.

Chip Bearden
JB

On Sunday, October 25, 2020 at 8:18:50 PM UTC-4, Chip Bearden wrote:
Next time, try it my way: warmly and without a trace of annoyance introduce yourself.

T8
Evan, next time, try it the new enlightened way: warmly and without a trace of condescension or presumption, inquire of Cindy for more details about what happened and how she conducted herself that day before judging (and insulting) her. Your assumption that this was somehow her fault says everything about what's wrong with this thread.

Years ago (OK, decades), I showed up for a big spring contest with my new ASW 24 after being out of soaring for a few years. I had met the contest manager in the past but he didn't seem to remember me because when I asked about tiedown spots, he brushed me off fairly rudely. I was a little startled but, hey, this was his contest so I stepped back. About that time, Rudy Mozer came rushing over and greeted me like a long-lost friend (which we were; we went back to the 1960s). All of a sudden, the contest manager was treating me like a VIP. I thought it was funny. But if every time I showed up for a contest I had to explain I was a pilot and not a spectator, it would probalby get old pretty soon. I hope I would behave properly each time but I also hope I would be forgiven for occasionally expressing frustration, not that anything Cindy said implied that she did so in this case.

Chip Bearden
JB

Hey Chip:

You are imagining a whole truckload of stuff that just ain't true.

My suggestion to Cindy was honest, forthright and made in 100% good faith. I have done just as I have suggested myself (slights can happen to men too, as your own experience confirms). It worked great. I have witnesses.

T8

Hey, do you guys remember the good old days? You know, when all the controversy seemed to surround somebody named Sean?