The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

While it may be the case that a volunteer/club model keeps costs low while gliding continues to use 1950's infrastructure and methods, this will not necessarily be the case if/when we begin to adopt alternative technologies at scale.

For a typical winch launch you need as a minimum:
1. A wing runner
2. A signaller
3. A winch driver
4. A recovery driver to fetch the glider when it lands and bring it back to the launch point

None of these are required for self-launching.
Furthermore, turnaround time will be faster with a powered glider in part because it can taxi under its own power.

We need to adopt self-launching with slot booking, as power has been doing since the beginning.

Gliding isn't in decline because it's becoming too expensive. It is in decline because it does not cater to the needs and expectations of modern society. I will say again: fewer people these days are willing to stand around on an airfield for an entire day for perhaps 20 mins in the air.
That's the problem...


....along with the fact that we're not publicly executing those who choose not to pay tax, of course.




On Friday, March 12, 2021 at 8:46:22 AM UTC, Jax wrote:
The clubs are in general decline, not just the gliding clubs but all clubs. Nowadays people want to be independent, autonomous, free to do what they want with no obligations, clubs carry obligations.

Often people take on an activity on their own and then join clubs or societies to share their experiences and improve with like minded people. With gliding you need to join and put up with "whatever" before you get onto your activity, so it is not an easy gradual commitment where you get to experience and fall in love with an activity before you have to put up with the 'family'.

We require a club and federation model to maintain the cost of gliding relatively low, that is achieved by extensive use of free volunteer work. If we had to pay at professional rates for what is necessary to commit gliding, the cost would be prohibitive. Standards, management, governance, maintenance, tuition, certification, competitions, towing etc are largely performed by volunteers. Many people are happy to get involved once they are hooked into gliding but again for the newcomer that is not an attractive model.

So Gliding reliance on clubs puts us in a bad position to attract new people.

Should we have a glide now pay later model? Well I am afraid that is already what we do with the volunteer model, I can't imagine asking current pilots to pay on top of the effort they put to attract new pilots.
We need to face the reality that to increase the freedom and independence of the pilots and thereby attract new pilots, gliding will become more expensive and less accessible.

But does the decline of gliding have anything to do with cost? I doubt, chess had a similar decline and it can't be due to the ever rising cost of the chess sets, right? What we need is Netflix to do a sexy serie like The Queen Gambit but about Gliding then Gliding will raise just like chess is now. Good luck with that, 2 minutes in 50 Shades of Grey was as good as we will ever get.

I think it is mostly about image, what is gliding, who is it for, would you want to be one of them? That is something that needs to be worked on at all levels, federations, clubs, individuals. The Clubhouses with 1970's carpet and rules posted on the walls don't really help.


I don't have a solution but I'll venture offering some suggestions, nothing really new nor ground breaking:
- Make it a family friendly activity so the Husband, Wife, Pops or Kid do not have to take time off from the family every time they go gliding. Whatever it takes, put a swimming pool, skatepark, fitness center, coffee shop or whatever at the airfield so it becomes family friendly.
- Make gliding easy to do anywhere, anytime, most clubs are cliquey, someone coming from another club is not trusted, they need to earn their stripes, they needs check rides, often re-certification, redo what they already did. We need standards and trust in them. When you are in holidays and your wife and daughter want to go shopping for the day you should be able to go to the local gliding club to continue your training where you left it, not a day pushing gliders just to be "assessed" at the end of the day because they have never seen you before.
- Most people are honest, when they have fun they want to share it and repay for it. Make them feel useful, let them do things, make them understand the real value of their contribution, be engaged, heard, proud. From day one, not only once they are known, trusted and respected.
- Rather than advertising and discounting gliding, we need to create an image that is appealing. When people know what they want, they know how to use Google and find us.
- I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with playstations and iphones (I have both and glide 120+ hours per year), we don't need need to trigger an EMP over large cities to bring people into gliding.

On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 10:33:06 UTC, wrote:
While it may be the case that a volunteer/club model keeps costs low while gliding continues to use 1950's infrastructure and methods, this will not necessarily be the case if/when we begin to adopt alternative technologies at scale.

For a typical winch launch you need as a minimum:
1. A wing runner
2. A signaller
3. A winch driver
4. A recovery driver to fetch the glider when it lands and bring it back to the launch point

None of these are required for self-launching.
Furthermore, turnaround time will be faster with a powered glider in part because it can taxi under its own power.

We need to adopt self-launching with slot booking, as power has been doing since the beginning.

Gliding isn't in decline because it's becoming too expensive. It is in decline because it does not cater to the needs and expectations of modern society. I will say again: fewer people these days are willing to stand around on an airfield for an entire day for perhaps 20 mins in the air.
That's the problem...

People have a range of interests and what they do in gliding, instructing, tugs, local soaring, decent cross countries, and you still haven't really elaborated on why you think this 20 minute flight might be a big ambition for a significant proportion. OK for you if that's what you want, but even some early solos still hope they might get an hour and a bit.

Nobody is stopping you doing this for yourself. Several clubs have some self-launching gliders. If you turn up on the potential best day of the year, and there's a queue of 100+ gliders waiting for the first wispy cu to appear before they all go, some on badge or tecord attempts, nobody will object to you going to the front and do your flight first. If launching is already in progress when you turn up, take your place in the queue, or it might fit in ok to let you go from alongside

Even if a club had 100 gliders that are all self-launching you might still have queue issues if you want to be there only an hour predefined by your booking several days earlier, compared to the people rigging at 8 am on a 750 km day. Note that the keen local soarers and trainees in two seaters aren't excluded on those days, they get their flights too.

On less busy days, it wont be a problem for you. But believe it or not, and perhaps you won't, even from early on, more people want to fly on the nice days. Your suggestions don't seem to take much account of that variability of demand.

On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 10:33:06 UTC, wrote:
While it may be the case that a volunteer/club model keeps costs low while gliding continues to use 1950's infrastructure and methods, this will not necessarily be the case if/when we begin to adopt alternative technologies at scale.

For a typical winch launch you need as a minimum:
1. A wing runner
2. A signaller
3. A winch driver
4. A recovery driver to fetch the glider when it lands and bring it back to the launch point

None of these are required for self-launching.
Furthermore, turnaround time will be faster with a powered glider in part because it can taxi under its own power.

We need to adopt self-launching with slot booking, as power has been doing since the beginning.

Gliding isn't in decline because it's becoming too expensive. It is in decline because it does not cater to the needs and expectations of modern society. I will say again: fewer people these days are willing to stand around on an airfield for an entire day for perhaps 20 mins in the air.
That's the problem...


My club currently operates 5 tugs and 5 K21's among other aircraft. We offer winch and aerotow launching every day - almost. I have carefully considered the pro's and con's of buying a self-launching K21 and have concluded that it does not make any sense to operate one or two of those alongside a fleet of tugs and pure gliders. Unless we totally change the nature of the operation, we still need members to volunteer for all the other tasks you mention (and many more) and we cannot generate a culture where new members think it is ok to turn up for a booked training slot, enjoy their lesson and go home. We ask students to commit to half a day at the club for their lesson - and if they find that too much then they are never going to become active glider pilots. As it happens, I don't think there is a suitable self-launching glider for the purpose - if you use a touring motor glider it is too much like a power plane, and does not feel like introducing someone to gliding, if you want a self-launching sailplane such as a K21 Mi or a DG1001M - I don't believe any have the reliability and robustness required for a training operation. And most of our current instructors are not qualified to fly them.

On Thursday, 11 March 2021 at 01:33:23 UTC-7, wrote:
I think that we have discovered a workable solution between us.

4. Publicly execute people who don't pay tax

You say that like it's a bad thing...

Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.

The stunning videos of coastal soaring in South Africa - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OOX...l=StefanLanger - were, I believe, taken by competitive pilots who were heavily subsidized to spend the NH winter in the south, keeping up their training, and who are to all intents and purposes professional pilots. I'd go so far as to say that if it wasn't for European, and especially German, government support, we'd all still be flying 1-36's.

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 9:40:43 AM UTC+10, ProfJ wrote:
On Thursday, 11 March 2021 at 01:33:23 UTC-7, wrote:
I think that we have discovered a workable solution between us.

4. Publicly execute people who don't pay tax

You say that like it's a bad thing...

Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.

The stunning videos of coastal soaring in South Africa - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OOX...l=StefanLanger - were, I believe, taken by competitive pilots who were heavily subsidized to spend the NH winter in the south, keeping up their training, and who are to all intents and purposes professional pilots. I'd go so far as to say that if it wasn't for European, and especially German, government support, we'd all still be flying 1-36's.

I think you're imagining a level of support far in excess of what there really is. I don't think Stefan is funded by the EU or Germany, nor is he a Sports Soldier. I sent him this thread to comment for himself.
In Germany the "Sports Soldier" program picks 4(?) young glider pilots to glide as part of their military service. In France the national federation is well funded such that they can afford new team gliders and nice facilities, but not salaried pilots. Beyond that, I'm not aware of other European countries with funded teams/pilots beyond the occasional grants to clubs.
I suppose you could say the strong safety nets/social benefits in Europe counts as a subsidy?

On Monday, 15 March 2021 at 18:12:12 UTC-6, Matthew Scutter wrote:
On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 9:40:43 AM UTC+10, ProfJ wrote:
On Thursday, 11 March 2021 at 01:33:23 UTC-7, wrote:
I think that we have discovered a workable solution between us.

4. Publicly execute people who don't pay tax

You say that like it's a bad thing...

Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.

The stunning videos of coastal soaring in South Africa - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OOX...l=StefanLanger - were, I believe, taken by competitive pilots who were heavily subsidized to spend the NH winter in the south, keeping up their training, and who are to all intents and purposes professional pilots. I'd go so far as to say that if it wasn't for European, and especially German, government support, we'd all still be flying 1-36's.
I think you're imagining a level of support far in excess of what there really is. I don't think Stefan is funded by the EU or Germany, nor is he a Sports Soldier. I sent him this thread to comment for himself.
In Germany the "Sports Soldier" program picks 4(?) young glider pilots to glide as part of their military service. In France the national federation is well funded such that they can afford new team gliders and nice facilities, but not salaried pilots. Beyond that, I'm not aware of other European countries with funded teams/pilots beyond the occasional grants to clubs.
I suppose you could say the strong safety nets/social benefits in Europe counts as a subsidy?

Thanks for the correction, I thought Stefan was one of the Sports Soldiers. I do think that having four pilots subsidized to fly, pretty much full-time and in a different hemisphere when necessary, is not a trivial level of support. Also, I believe that eg. the gliders were also made available by the Sports Soldier program? I have experienced gliding clubs which were not state-supported, and those which are, and made a massive difference - particularly in provision of good gliders, etc. It might not look like a lot, but everything that removes friction and improves the pilot experience makes a difference in the long run.

I have experienced gliding clubs which were
not state-supported, and those which are, and made a massive difference -
particularly in provision of good gliders, etc. It might not look like a
lot, but everything that removes friction and improves the pilot experience
makes a difference in the long run.

There's an axiom: If you want more of any type of behavior, subsidize it. A
self-evident truth indeed...

Lotsa examples out there, and soaring in Germany, especially, is historical
poster child No. 1. Whether one perceives that as a good thing or a bad thing
or somewhere in-between, is another topic entirely!

If we accept the decline of soaring is due to expense in terms of cash and time along with too many other choices of how to spend discretionary time and money and people are choosing otherwise the real question is how do we make the product attractive? Many of the solution suggestions are very good. Many of them come from the perspective of experienced pilots and what is what we might want if starting out. Does the soaring community have any idea what a rank beginner wants? What does a person without any idea of what soaring is besides "It looks neat..." need to stay involved? I don't know I'm just asking.

On Monday, March 15, 2021 at 7:40:43 PM UTC-4, ProfJ wrote:
On Thursday, 11 March 2021 at 01:33:23 UTC-7, wrote:
I think that we have discovered a workable solution between us.

4. Publicly execute people who don't pay tax

You say that like it's a bad thing...

Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.

The stunning videos of coastal soaring in South Africa - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OOX...l=StefanLanger - were, I believe, taken by competitive pilots who were heavily subsidized to spend the NH winter in the south, keeping up their training, and who are to all intents and purposes professional pilots. I'd go so far as to say that if it wasn't for European, and especially German, government support, we'd all still be flying 1-36's.


Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.
Care to cite the countries in which gliding is heavily subsidized by taxpayer money?
And while you are at it, care to cite the tax codes under which such heavy subsidies are being doled out?
Fair warning: don't mention Germany in your list, because there, it ain't so currently and hasn't been so in the last 40+ years.
I am talking about West-Germany and the now reunified Germany, not 'East-Germany', where the state-run GST (Gesellschaft fuer Sport und Technik), the virtual extension of the HJ ('Asshole with narrow mustache'-Youth) was provided with state money/equipment to seek out talents for their armed forces, etc.!
There is no federal money flowing freely into the coffers of the soaring clubs so they can order the latest glider model every time the ashtray is full! There is a very modest subsidy on the state level by a program called 'Sporthilfe' (Sport Aid) and the club I belonged to would receive maybe 500 Euro per year after filling out reams of applications for it.
All clubs carrying the suffix 'e.V.' in their name are the equivalent of a 501c(3) organizations, which gives them some tax relief. However, matters get really complicated when for instance the club operates its own fuel pump for the tow plane, motor-glider and winch and actually sells fuel to the occasional visiting plane. They have to fork over the sales taxes to their IRS and get audited on that regularly. In addition, clubs are now required to self-certify that their book-keeping is transparent and no money laundry is going on - with an audit about that looming over their heads!
Source of the above: I am related to the person who was the managing director for our club for a very long time and we talked about these matters at length.
So, please get the facts straight before you repeat what your sister's babysitter's third cousin once read on FB!

Uli
'AS'

It is absolutely correct that in Germany, there is no sigificant sponsoring of soaring by the tax payer. The few individuals who are having fun in Worcester every winter are "Sportsoldaten", i.e. members of the German army which has a section of athletes being sponsored by the arny during 12 months. That does not include the procurement of the gliders.
The wealth of German club has been brought on by... the members of those clubs during a well planned growth over decennies. And many of these clubs (like my club in Switzerland) doesn't see any decline. Most of those clubs have gotten rid of their wood & fabric gliders long ago (maybe with the exception of an ASK13 here and there).

In France, there have been quite some subsidies going into soaring, one big chunk has been the supply of free tow planes (MS893) from the air force. Now that these tugs are getting old and need to be replaced (and the air force doesn't run this program anymore), clubs are running into problems.

Le mardi 16 mars 2021 Ã* 23:37:25 UTC+1, AS a écritÂ*:
On Monday, March 15, 2021 at 7:40:43 PM UTC-4, ProfJ wrote:
On Thursday, 11 March 2021 at 01:33:23 UTC-7, wrote:
I think that we have discovered a workable solution between us.

4. Publicly execute people who don't pay tax

You say that like it's a bad thing...

Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.

The stunning videos of coastal soaring in South Africa - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OOX...l=StefanLanger - were, I believe, taken by competitive pilots who were heavily subsidized to spend the NH winter in the south, keeping up their training, and who are to all intents and purposes professional pilots. I'd go so far as to say that if it wasn't for European, and especially German, government support, we'd all still be flying 1-36's.


Seriously, though, those young folks who you do see promoting the sport are all coming from countries where gliding is heavily subsidized by....wait for it...taxpayer money.
Care to cite the countries in which gliding is heavily subsidized by taxpayer money?
And while you are at it, care to cite the tax codes under which such heavy subsidies are being doled out?
Fair warning: don't mention Germany in your list, because there, it ain't so currently and hasn't been so in the last 40+ years.
I am talking about West-Germany and the now reunified Germany, not 'East-Germany', where the state-run GST (Gesellschaft fuer Sport und Technik), the virtual extension of the HJ ('Asshole with narrow mustache'-Youth) was provided with state money/equipment to seek out talents for their armed forces, etc.!
There is no federal money flowing freely into the coffers of the soaring clubs so they can order the latest glider model every time the ashtray is full! There is a very modest subsidy on the state level by a program called 'Sporthilfe' (Sport Aid) and the club I belonged to would receive maybe 500 Euro per year after filling out reams of applications for it.
All clubs carrying the suffix 'e.V.' in their name are the equivalent of a 501c(3) organizations, which gives them some tax relief. However, matters get really complicated when for instance the club operates its own fuel pump for the tow plane, motor-glider and winch and actually sells fuel to the occasional visiting plane. They have to fork over the sales taxes to their IRS and get audited on that regularly. In addition, clubs are now required to self-certify that their book-keeping is transparent and no money laundry is going on - with an audit about that looming over their heads!
Source of the above: I am related to the person who was the managing director for our club for a very long time and we talked about these matters at length.
So, please get the facts straight before you repeat what your sister's babysitter's third cousin once read on FB!

Uli
'AS'