The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

On Sat, 13 Mar 2021 16:19:14 -0800, waremark wrote:

I have carefully considered the pro's and con's of buying a self-
launching K21 and have concluded that it does not make any sense to
operate one or two of those alongside a fleet of tugs and pure gliders.

Out of pure curiosity, why would you consider using self-launching K-21s
when you have at least one winch?

I'd expect a well-managed winch operation would give a better launch rate
than self-launching '21s as well as (probably, guessed) a lower operating
cost?

The only improvement I've seen, for landing practise anyway, is that a
good simulator can deliver many more simulated winch launches and
landings per hour than the best winch operation can manage, mainly
because no time is wasted bringing glider and inmates back to the
launchpoint for the next flight. Experience last year has shown me that
this is not necessarily worse training than you get from a launching in a
real K21 on a real winch, BUT, the simulator needs to have a real cockpit
and a big enough projected field of view that you don't notice its edges
while you're flying the simulator.

Weather put paid to my annual flying checks last year before the first
COVID lockdown. When that was lifted I, like many club members, spent a
couple of hours in the simulator with an instructor behind a glass
partition with an intercom. After that I got sent up the winch solo in a
K-21 for a check flight, observed from the ground by the instructor.
Apart from the lack of stalling and spinning checks, this worked pretty
well and I was cleared to fly my Libelle on the next soarable day.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

What an awful situation! Is that because your club owns the ground? If
you had a self-launcher you could fly out of a public field using your
own judgment. Or is it a BGA requirement to submit to such treatment?

In The Colonies, we have our every other year flight review required by
the FAA. The rest is on us to be competent.

Down with George III...

Dan
5J

On 3/13/21 6:04 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
and I was cleared to fly my Libelle on the next soarable day.

On Sunday, 14 March 2021 at 01:04:39 UTC, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 13 Mar 2021 16:19:14 -0800, waremark wrote:

I have carefully considered the pro's and con's of buying a self-
launching K21 and have concluded that it does not make any sense to
operate one or two of those alongside a fleet of tugs and pure gliders.

Out of pure curiosity, why would you consider using self-launching K-21s
when you have at least one winch?


Our field is much smaller than yours. A typical winch launch height is 1,000 foot, and there is a long ground retrieve from the normal landing area to the launch area. So the winch is productive in terms of numbers of launches from the site if their are several gliders using it and enough people on the ground for efficient operation, but it is not productive for an individual student. We do not use it for trial lessons or introductory flights where we want people to have longer in the air.

For an individual student, a self-launcher which can taxi back to the launch area after landing would enable the sort of booked session typical at a power club - say 2 hours at the airfield for one hour of flying time. For delivery of introductory flights, an individual instructor could quite easily do two 20 minute flights per hour.

On Saturday, March 13, 2021 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 10:33:06 UTC, wrote:
While it may be the case that a volunteer/club model keeps costs low while gliding continues to use 1950's infrastructure and methods, this will not necessarily be the case if/when we begin to adopt alternative technologies at scale.

For a typical winch launch you need as a minimum:
1. A wing runner
2. A signaller
3. A winch driver
4. A recovery driver to fetch the glider when it lands and bring it back to the launch point

None of these are required for self-launching.
Furthermore, turnaround time will be faster with a powered glider in part because it can taxi under its own power.

We need to adopt self-launching with slot booking, as power has been doing since the beginning.

Gliding isn't in decline because it's becoming too expensive. It is in decline because it does not cater to the needs and expectations of modern society. I will say again: fewer people these days are willing to stand around on an airfield for an entire day for perhaps 20 mins in the air.
That's the problem...

My club currently operates 5 tugs and 5 K21's among other aircraft. We offer winch and aerotow launching every day - almost. I have carefully considered the pro's and con's of buying a self-launching K21 and have concluded that it does not make any sense to operate one or two of those alongside a fleet of tugs and pure gliders. Unless we totally change the nature of the operation, we still need members to volunteer for all the other tasks you mention (and many more) and we cannot generate a culture where new members think it is ok to turn up for a booked training slot, enjoy their lesson and go home. We ask students to commit to half a day at the club for their lesson - and if they find that too much then they are never going to become active glider pilots. As it happens, I don't think there is a suitable self-launching glider for the purpose - if you use a touring motor glider it is too much like a power plane, and does not feel like introducing someone to gliding, if you want a self-launching sailplane such as a K21 Mi or a DG1001M - I don't believe any have the reliability and robustness required for a training operation. And most of our current instructors are not qualified to fly them.

Unless we totally change the nature of the operation, we still need members to volunteer for all the other tasks you mention (and many more) and we cannot generate a culture where new members think it is ok to turn up for a booked training slot, enjoy their lesson and go home.
I couldn't agree more! We had a case like this a while ago when a 'helicopter-mom' dropped her son off in the morning because he had an intro-flight that day. She asked me when she could pick him back up again. I told her it would be best if her son calls her in the evening after the equipment has been washed, cleaned, the pajamas put on and then pushed back into the hangar. With a somewhat puzzled look on face, she said 'What?? - my son has to work here? What am I paying the dues for?' In her mind, taking a soaring lesson was akin to booking an hour with the tennis- or golf pro or dropping him off for his Karate lesson. Needless to say that we never saw her or the kid again. It is that culture passed down by parents to their children which is part of the problem! We now spell it out very clearly to any prospect new member what is expected of them if they want to join the club.

Uli
'AS'

On Sunday, March 14, 2021 at 4:49:52 PM UTC, AS wrote:
I couldn't agree more! We had a case like this a while ago when a 'helicopter-mom' dropped her son off in the morning because he had an intro-flight that day. She asked me when she could pick him back up again. I told her it would be best if her son calls her in the evening after the equipment has been washed, cleaned, the pajamas put on and then pushed back into the hangar. With a somewhat puzzled look on face, she said 'What?? - my son has to work here? What am I paying the dues for?' In her mind, taking a soaring lesson was akin to booking an hour with the tennis- or golf pro or dropping him off for his Karate lesson. Needless to say that we never saw her or the kid again. It is that culture passed down by parents to their children which is part of the problem! We now spell it out very clearly to any prospect new member what is expected of them if they want to join the club.

Uli
'AS'

We have two options:

1. Moan and bitch about how people don't want to spend their day sat on an airfield, in the hope that society returns to the state it was in during the 1960's.

2. Recognise that the world has moved on and change the way we 'do' our sport in order to stay relevant.

One of those options will lead to further decline while the other will potentially lead to its resurgence.

On Sunday, 14 March 2021 at 16:49:52 UTC, AS wrote:
I couldn't agree more! We had a case like this a while ago when a 'helicopter-mom' dropped her son off in the morning because he had an intro-flight that day. She asked me when she could pick him back up again. I told her it would be best if her son calls her in the evening after the equipment has been washed, cleaned, the pajamas put on and then pushed back into the hangar. With a somewhat puzzled look on face, she said 'What?? - my son has to work here? What am I paying the dues for?' In her mind, taking a soaring lesson was akin to booking an hour with the tennis- or golf pro or dropping him off for his Karate lesson. Needless to say that we never saw her or the kid again. It is that culture passed down by parents to their children which is part of the problem! We now spell it out very clearly to any prospect new member what is expected of them if they want to join the club.

Uli
'AS'

To be fair, some of that attitude exists in any field, not just gliding. I remember my sister organising a kid's party, and remarking how few other parents offered to help. Was it like free babysitting for the afternoon, I asked

Perhaps we should "recruit" from youth sailing. It takes "ground work" before and after sailing. If I had a teanage kid, I would love to drop them off for half a day or longer!!
On Sunday, March 14, 2021 at 9:49:52 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
On Saturday, March 13, 2021 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
On Friday, 12 March 2021 at 10:33:06 UTC, wrote:
While it may be the case that a volunteer/club model keeps costs low while gliding continues to use 1950's infrastructure and methods, this will not necessarily be the case if/when we begin to adopt alternative technologies at scale.

For a typical winch launch you need as a minimum:
1. A wing runner
2. A signaller
3. A winch driver
4. A recovery driver to fetch the glider when it lands and bring it back to the launch point

None of these are required for self-launching.
Furthermore, turnaround time will be faster with a powered glider in part because it can taxi under its own power.

We need to adopt self-launching with slot booking, as power has been doing since the beginning.

Gliding isn't in decline because it's becoming too expensive. It is in decline because it does not cater to the needs and expectations of modern society. I will say again: fewer people these days are willing to stand around on an airfield for an entire day for perhaps 20 mins in the air.
That's the problem...

My club currently operates 5 tugs and 5 K21's among other aircraft. We offer winch and aerotow launching every day - almost. I have carefully considered the pro's and con's of buying a self-launching K21 and have concluded that it does not make any sense to operate one or two of those alongside a fleet of tugs and pure gliders. Unless we totally change the nature of the operation, we still need members to volunteer for all the other tasks you mention (and many more) and we cannot generate a culture where new members think it is ok to turn up for a booked training slot, enjoy their lesson and go home. We ask students to commit to half a day at the club for their lesson - and if they find that too much then they are never going to become active glider pilots. As it happens, I don't think there is a suitable self-launching glider for the purpose - if you use a touring motor glider it is too much like a power plane, and does not feel like introducing someone to gliding, if you want a self-launching sailplane such as a K21 Mi or a DG1001M - I don't believe any have the reliability and robustness required for a training operation. And most of our current instructors are not qualified to fly them.

Unless we totally change the nature of the operation, we still need members to volunteer for all the other tasks you mention (and many more) and we cannot generate a culture where new members think it is ok to turn up for a booked training slot, enjoy their lesson and go home.
I couldn't agree more! We had a case like this a while ago when a 'helicopter-mom' dropped her son off in the morning because he had an intro-flight that day. She asked me when she could pick him back up again. I told her it would be best if her son calls her in the evening after the equipment has been washed, cleaned, the pajamas put on and then pushed back into the hangar. With a somewhat puzzled look on face, she said 'What?? - my son has to work here? What am I paying the dues for?' In her mind, taking a soaring lesson was akin to booking an hour with the tennis- or golf pro or dropping him off for his Karate lesson. Needless to say that we never saw her or the kid again. It is that culture passed down by parents to their children which is part of the problem! We now spell it out very clearly to any prospect new member what is expected of them if they want to join the club.

Uli
'AS'