GWB's piloting fun....

sam- By the standard your setting down in your first paragraph I guess the
SAC pilots sitting on their wheels around the world weren't serving
either. BRBR


C'mon..there is 'serving' and there is 'serving'...Getting into the AirGuard
with yer Daddy's help to avoid a comflict ain't quite the same as being in the
USAF on alert in case of the 'big heat'....
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

"CallsignZippo" wrote in message
om...
To bad George did not have the same fun dancing over downtown
Hanoi.Oops I forgot he was having fun defending the US of A from an
air attack from the Mexican Air Force. Well, I guess that's another
yarn for another day.

Well, I don't know about anyone else but I am sure as hell glad all
major combat operations are over in Iraq, I was worried we were going
to get in a real shooting war for a while.

More boots on the ole proverbial ground, hell we don;t need them, we
just have to hire some more private contractors, and the dead enders
and thugs will be gone in no time.

Lastly, after 911 the primary theatre of operations should have been
Afghanistan and the outlaw regions of Pakistan, not Iraq. Bin Laden
and his band of murders never (until recently) had a foothold in Iraq,
but they sure as hell, have one today, not only in Afghanistan but
Iraq as well.

How in the hell, do you invade and occupy the WRONG country.

It ain't easy!! (^-^)))

George Z.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

"CallsignZippo" wrote in message
om...
To bad George did not have the same fun dancing over downtown
Hanoi.Oops I forgot he was having fun defending the US of A from an
air attack from the Mexican Air Force. Well, I guess that's another
yarn for another day.



How in the hell, do you invade and occupy the WRONG country.

It ain't easy!! (^-^)))

And it ain't the first time, either!

The funny thing about military outsourcing is it is the only case I
know of where the outsourcing costs more than the in-house employees.
However, having the contractors do the beating and killing of
prisoners does give the US cover.

(CallsignZippo) wrote in message . com...
To bad George did not have the same fun dancing over downtown
Hanoi.Oops I forgot he was having fun defending the US of A from an
air attack from the Mexican Air Force. Well, I guess that's another
yarn for another day.

Well, I don't know about anyone else but I am sure as hell glad all
major combat operations are over in Iraq, I was worried we were going
to get in a real shooting war for a while.

More boots on the ole proverbial ground, hell we don;t need them, we
just have to hire some more private contractors, and the dead enders
and thugs will be gone in no time.

Lastly, after 911 the primary theatre of operations should have been
Afghanistan and the outlaw regions of Pakistan, not Iraq. Bin Laden
and his band of murders never (until recently) had a foothold in Iraq,
but they sure as hell, have one today, not only in Afghanistan but
Iraq as well.

How in the hell, do you invade and occupy the WRONG country.

The funny thing about military outsourcing is it is the only case I know of
where the outsourcing costs more than the in-house employees. However,
having the contractors do the beating and killing of prisoners does give the
US cover.

The pejorative note of this comment aside, we as a nation have never fully
debated the question of the role - if any - that "contractors" should play.

One danger that I see is of our slipping into a "Légion Étrangère" mentality
(That's "Foreign Legion," to all you non-Francophones out there.). The
temptation for reckless adventurism increases when mercenaries - especially
non-US nationals - get paid to absorb the body counts, absolving politicians
of having to answer to the nation for those killed in the line of duty.

In short, do we really want to become like the French?

--
Mike Kanze

"Democratic strategists feel John Kerry's war record means he can beat Bush.
They say when it comes down to it voters will always vote for a war hero
over someone who tried to get out of the war. I'll be sure to mention that
to Bob Dole when I see him."

- Jay Leno


"miso" wrote in message
om...
[rest snipped]

"Mike Kanze" wrote in message
...
The funny thing about military outsourcing is it is the only case I know
of
where the outsourcing costs more than the in-house employees. However,
having the contractors do the beating and killing of prisoners does give
the
US cover.


In short, do we really want to become like the French?

This coming presidential election should give you a pretty clear answer to
that question.

"Mike Kanze" wrote in message

The funny thing about military outsourcing is it is the only case I know
of
where the outsourcing costs more than the in-house employees. However,
having the contractors do the beating and killing of prisoners does give
the
US cover.

The pejorative note of this comment aside, we as a nation have never fully
debated the question of the role - if any - that "contractors" should
play.

The U.S. military has been using contractors since the time of Geo.
Washington. IIRC, his commissariat was all contractors (just not Bechtel).
During the Civil War wagoneers and teamsters were all civilian contractors.
Most of the railroads were civilian run (although the Army did have railroad
battalions of gandy dancers, as well as run full trains). During the Indian
Wars you could add civilian scouts to the wagonmen and teamsters. The
Remount Sevice was peopled mostly by civilians. This seems to change after
the very spotty performance by the U.S. Army during the Spanish-American War
so that by the time of WWII you had the Army Air Force owning aircraft
manufacturing plants.

I think the Navy has also made extensive use of contractors at Navy Yards
over history, again with a much larger use of uniformed servicement to
provide support services during WWII. And, to keep this at least somewhat
NavAir oriented, the Navy did run an aircraft factory in Philedelphia for a
long time (and may have run others).

So the role of the contractor has grown and diminished over the years,
depending on circumstances.

One danger that I see is of our slipping into a "Légion Étrangère"
mentality
(That's "Foreign Legion," to all you non-Francophones out there.). The
temptation for reckless adventurism increases when mercenaries -
especially
non-US nationals - get paid to absorb the body counts, absolving
politicians
of having to answer to the nation for those killed in the line of duty.

I think this is a rather broad statement and not supported by the facts.

In short, do we really want to become like the French?

Probably not. But that presumes that we are in any way, shape, or form
headed in that direction. I don't see that happening.

Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão

Bill,

Thanks for the very interesting history of contactors serving the US
military. When I wrote this, I was thinking primarily of those contractors
whose "job descriptions" specifically send them into harm's way. Indian
scouts certainly qualify here, while yardbirds don't.

My point still remains, that we as a nation have never had a clear debate on
this question.

One danger that I see is of our slipping into a "Légion Étrangère"
mentality [rest snipped for brevity]

I think this is a rather broad statement and not supported by the facts.

The ability for the French government to sacrifice non-French citizens in
the pursuit of national policy is precisely why France has maintained the
Légion Étrangère. If you think the US Left is passionate about not sending
our troops into war, you haven't seen the passion of the French on this
point. France (as well as Britain) was bled white by the excesses of WWI
and that horrific memory continues very sharp in the French mind, almost 90
years later.

IIRC, the Legion's officer corps are its only French nationals. Every other
Legionnaire is a non-citizen volunteer who may later obtain French
citizenship upon successful completion of his enlistment.

By contrast, the regular French Army is (or at least used to be) primarily
conscript.

In short, do we really want to become like the French?

Probably not. But that presumes that we are in any way, shape, or form
headed in that direction. I don't see that happening.

I hope not.

--
Mike Kanze

"Democratic strategists feel John Kerry's war record means he can beat Bush.
They say when it comes down to it voters will always vote for a war hero
over someone who tried to get out of the war. I'll be sure to mention that
to Bob Dole when I see him."

- Jay Leno


"Bill Kambic" wrote in message
...
"Mike Kanze" wrote in message
[rest snipped]

"Mike Kanze" wrote in message

Thanks for the very interesting history of contactors serving the US
military. When I wrote this, I was thinking primarily of those
contractors
whose "job descriptions" specifically send them into harm's way. Indian
scouts certainly qualify here, while yardbirds don't.

I don't think I would apply the term "yarbirds" to frontier era teamsters or
wagonmasters.

Plenty of supply trains in every conflict were hit by hostiles. The Wagon
Box Fight was mostly hay cutters with a very few troopers and scouts holding
off a large party of braves. If you are part of a combat organization, even
as a contractor, you are in harm's way.

My point still remains, that we as a nation have never had a clear debate
on
this question.

I am not sure one is necessary.

One danger that I see is of our slipping into a "Légion Étrangère"
mentality [rest snipped for brevity]

I think this is a rather broad statement and not supported by the facts.

The ability for the French government to sacrifice non-French citizens in
the pursuit of national policy is precisely why France has maintained the
Légion Étrangère. If you think the US Left is passionate about not
sending
our troops into war, you haven't seen the passion of the French on this
point. France (as well as Britain) was bled white by the excesses of WWI
and that horrific memory continues very sharp in the French mind, almost
90
years later.

IIRC, the Legion's officer corps are its only French nationals. Every
other
Legionnaire is a non-citizen volunteer who may later obtain French
citizenship upon successful completion of his enlistment.

By contrast, the regular French Army is (or at least used to be) primarily
conscript.

I think you correct on the French policy. But that does not even bear a
superficial resemblance to the modern, American all-volunteer force.

Back in the mid to late '60s George Reedy wrote a small book entitled, "Who
Will Do Our Fighting For Us?" It addressed many of the issues of the
volunteer vs. conscript force. It was worthwhile reading then, and it is
now.

In short, do we really want to become like the French?

Probably not. But that presumes that we are in any way, shape, or form
headed in that direction. I don't see that happening.

I hope not.

Me, too. And so far I see no evidence that it is.

Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão