Sea Story For Woody

Woody,

I remember reading about this one, although not in the detail you shared.
IIRC, wasn't this the very last A-6 operational loss?

Owl's rant on target-towing: It's bad enough when humans are aiming the
guns. GMGSN Murphy - and his JMSDF equivalent - crews every battery. To
someone like me schooled in the quirks of radars and black boxes it's just
plain lunacy to send a manned aircraft past a hot CIWS. You KNOW the
radar's gonna go for the most significant return up there. From time to
time this won't be the TDU. In Rooster's case it was that big ol' flying
drumstick.

Or maybe this was just payback to the account of someone's WWII-era
ancestor.

Last I heard, Rooster was flying for United.

Hope Rooster has a secure alternative for his pension.

Owl sends.
--
Mike Kanze

"If history repeats itself, I should think we can expect the same thing
again."

- NBC softball analyst at the 2004 Summer Olympics (This one earned the Yogi
Berra Award.)


"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...
On 9/6/04 2:01 PM, in article , "Mike
Kanze" wrote:

Since Woody just asked for sea stories, I'll try to oblige.
Unfortunately
this one came to me third or fourth-hand, so its provenance is uncertain,
thus the customary "TINS" acronym will be omitted.

Owl,

In kind...

A guy I knew in the FRS, Will "Rooster" Royster was finishing out his tour
with VA-115 just before the squadron transitioned to Hornets (and before
the
Super Hornet transition too). They were at sea with CVW-5 on INDY
supporting a RIMPAC with the JMDSF. Circa 1996.

Seems that like most senior JO's or O-4 non-DH's, he drew the short stick
to
drag the TDU's across the sky. Towing targets so that the small boys can
fire their CIWS. I've flown the missions myself, and I remember that I
wasn't too excited about it. Lots of droning around worrying about
whether
the TDU was really 500 feet above the water and if it was sagging in the
turn or not. Occasionally, we'd tow for some foreign ship. I even towed
one for the Russians post-cold-war. In short, it was just another way of
being yanked from a bombing or ACM hop to drone around on some
administrative mission.

Anyway, such is Rooster's lot. He's droning around in a race track
pattern
perpendicular to the ship's course on his first run. He give's them an
"inbound at 8 (miles)" call on the radio. The next step would be for him
to
call "cleared hot" after he passes over the ship. At that point, only the
target is exposed to the live weapon, and the frigate has about 2 1/2 to 3
miles to pop the target with those DU 20mm shells. How monotonous.

He never gets that far. Shortly after getting settled wings level on the
inbound leg, he feels a THUMP, THUMP, THUMP.

Not good.

All electrical power vanishes (day/VMC). Rooster reaches behind him with
his left hand and pulls the RAT handle to deploy the air-driven generator
on
the top of the left wing root. He looks over his shoulder to ensure it's
out in the breeze, but instead of the RAT on the wing, he sees that the
whole aft end of the jet is a fireball.

Really not good.

As he brings his gaze back into the cockpit, he notices that the controls
have frozen up. The airplane is starting an uncommanded roll to the
right.
His B/N, LT Keith Douglas has "assumed the position." Less than a second
later, he's in the breeze watching his jet go down in smoke and flames.
They've just been shot down by the Japanese.

Here's where the story diverges a bit. The news reports that both
aviators
were picked up by the Japanese and that their injuries were "non life
threatening."

In reality, LT Douglas was picked up by the Japanese, but Rooster (whose
nose was "degloved" by the microphone in his O2 mask as his helmet was
ripped from his head during the ejection) waves off the Japanese rescue
boat. He's in his raft, bloody and angry and refuses to be rescued by
anybody that just shot him down. He gets picked up by helo a few minutes
later.

Navy docs did a great job repairing him. I saw him a few months later and
couldn't even detect any scarring.

The Japanese invited he and his B/N to a reception to offer a formal
apology. He either refused to go or refused to accept it (can't remember
which). Minor diplomatic international incident. President Clinton
accepted Japan's apology.

Last I heard, Rooster was flying for United.

--Woody

On 9/8/04 1:16 PM, in article , "Mike
Kanze" wrote:

Woody,

I remember reading about this one, although not in the detail you shared.
IIRC, wasn't this the very last A-6 operational loss?

Owl's rant on target-towing: It's bad enough when humans are aiming the
guns. GMGSN Murphy - and his JMSDF equivalent - crews every battery. To
someone like me schooled in the quirks of radars and black boxes it's just
plain lunacy to send a manned aircraft past a hot CIWS. You KNOW the
radar's gonna go for the most significant return up there. From time to
time this won't be the TDU. In Rooster's case it was that big ol' flying
drumstick.

Good rant.

The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot until
after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's
course). THEN and only then was the ship permitted to arm the gun and take
the targeting radar out of standby--at least that's the way I understood the
process.

Obviously, the knucklehead-sans on the Yuguuri (?) didn't totally understand
the process. We took revenge later by taking out one of their fishing
traulers with a sub.

The concept of the mission did make the hair stand up on the back of my neck
a bit, but I personally never had a bad experience with it, and I don't
remember of any other except for this one. These days, I think they use
contracted Lears to do the job. I've never seen a pod mounted on an S-3 or
a Hornet.

As an aside, I know that the CIWS was a really good shot. I never reeled a
target back in.


Or maybe this was just payback to the account of someone's WWII-era
ancestor.

Last I heard, Rooster was flying for United.

Hope Rooster has a secure alternative for his pension.

Owl sends.

Amen.

--Woody

Woody,

The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot until
after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's
course).

Clearly, Murphy-san was on duty that day.

Some random rhetoricals, all made without any knowledge of the situational
details:

* Thoroughness of the brief? (Especially when more than one language is
involved.)
* Right training device for the exercise?
* Pre-exercise affirmative demonstrated knowledge of range safety procedures
by all involved - in English?
* Cockpit indications of being high-PRF painted BEFORE the "in hot" call?
(If I had seen high-PRF before "in hot" I would have broken off immediately
and started shouting on Guard.)
* Wx and viz conditions appropriate to the exercise?
* And so on...

The answers are there, and you don't need the Home Depot guy to find them.

--
Mike Kanze

"If history repeats itself, I should think we can expect the same thing
again."

- NBC softball analyst at the 2004 Summer Olympics (This one earned the Yogi
Berra Award.)


"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...
On 9/8/04 1:16 PM, in article , "Mike
Kanze" wrote:

Woody,

I remember reading about this one, although not in the detail you shared.
IIRC, wasn't this the very last A-6 operational loss?

Owl's rant on target-towing: It's bad enough when humans are aiming the
guns. GMGSN Murphy - and his JMSDF equivalent - crews every battery. To
someone like me schooled in the quirks of radars and black boxes it's
just
plain lunacy to send a manned aircraft past a hot CIWS. You KNOW the
radar's gonna go for the most significant return up there. From time to
time this won't be the TDU. In Rooster's case it was that big ol' flying
drumstick.

Good rant.

The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot until
after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's
course). THEN and only then was the ship permitted to arm the gun and
take
the targeting radar out of standby--at least that's the way I understood
the
process.

Obviously, the knucklehead-sans on the Yuguuri (?) didn't totally
understand
the process. We took revenge later by taking out one of their fishing
traulers with a sub.

The concept of the mission did make the hair stand up on the back of my
neck
a bit, but I personally never had a bad experience with it, and I don't
remember of any other except for this one. These days, I think they use
contracted Lears to do the job. I've never seen a pod mounted on an S-3
or
a Hornet.

As an aside, I know that the CIWS was a really good shot. I never reeled
a
target back in.


Or maybe this was just payback to the account of someone's WWII-era
ancestor.

Last I heard, Rooster was flying for United.

Hope Rooster has a secure alternative for his pension.

Owl sends.

Amen.

--Woody

In article , Mike Kanze
wrote:

Woody,

The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot until
after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's
course).

Clearly, Murphy-san was on duty that day.

Some random rhetoricals, all made without any knowledge of the situational
details:

snipped

* Cockpit indications of being high-PRF painted BEFORE the "in hot" call?
(If I had seen high-PRF before "in hot" I would have broken off immediately
and started shouting on Guard.)

snipped

The answers are there, and you don't need the Home Depot guy to find them.

Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond
the ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other
fighitng drumstick the Prowler)
Pugs

Pugs,

Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond the
ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other fighitng
drumstick the Prowler)

Wouldn't surprise me.

Add to my list of rhetoricals:

* Can we effectively counter our OWN weapons in a training situation - or
otherwise?

Not an idle question, given the propensity for our stuff to wind up in other
folks' hands - like A-4s to the Argentines (the Brits must have loved us for
that one), Stingers to the Afghan guerillas or F-14s to the Shah.

Example: During the VN war, a barely feet-dry A-6B pickled a Shrike at a
NVN SAM site. The Shrike made for the juiciest emitter it could detect -
which was NOT the FanSong but the PIRAZ small boy sitting out in the Gulf of
Tonkin. Only the quick action of RED CROWN shutting down all its radars
saved it. This incident led to the "no turn shots" rule which the A-6Bs
followed from thereafter. (The passage of time has made me fuzzy on the
precise details of this one. Better info invited.)

Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. g

--
Mike Kanze

"If history repeats itself, I should think we can expect the same thing
again."

- NBC softball analyst at the 2004 Summer Olympics (This one earned the Yogi
Berra Award.)


"Allen Epps" wrote in message
et...
In article , Mike Kanze
wrote:

Woody,

The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot
until
after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's
course).

Clearly, Murphy-san was on duty that day.

Some random rhetoricals, all made without any knowledge of the
situational
details:

snipped

* Cockpit indications of being high-PRF painted BEFORE the "in hot" call?
(If I had seen high-PRF before "in hot" I would have broken off
immediately
and started shouting on Guard.)

snipped

The answers are there, and you don't need the Home Depot guy to find
them.

Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond
the ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other
fighitng drumstick the Prowler)
Pugs

Mike Kanze wrote:
Pugs,


Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond the
ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other fighitng
drumstick the Prowler)


Wouldn't surprise me.

Add to my list of rhetoricals:

* Can we effectively counter our OWN weapons in a training situation - or
otherwise?

Not an idle question, given the propensity for our stuff to wind up in other
folks' hands - like A-4s to the Argentines (the Brits must have loved us for
that one), Stingers to the Afghan guerillas or F-14s to the Shah.

Example: During the VN war, a barely feet-dry A-6B pickled a Shrike at a
NVN SAM site. The Shrike made for the juiciest emitter it could detect -
which was NOT the FanSong but the PIRAZ small boy sitting out in the Gulf of
Tonkin. Only the quick action of RED CROWN shutting down all its radars
saved it. This incident led to the "no turn shots" rule which the A-6Bs
followed from thereafter. (The passage of time has made me fuzzy on the
precise details of this one. Better info invited.)

Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. g

Hmm, I thought I saw som kind of optronic device on recent pictures of
one of the latest blocks; A recent addition I'm sure, but is that for
the gunners mate, or autonomus-mode operation?

/Morten
Harpoon 4 boardgame affectionado, no real experience whatsoever

On 9/9/04 5:50 PM, in article ,
"Morten Lund" wrote:

Mike Kanze wrote:
Pugs,
SNIP

Too bad CIWS is not optically-guided. The Intruder's sheer ugliness would
have frustrated acquisition by the R2D2-san. g

Hmm, I thought I saw som kind of optronic device on recent pictures of
one of the latest blocks; A recent addition I'm sure, but is that for
the gunners mate, or autonomus-mode operation?

/Morten
Harpoon 4 boardgame affectionado, no real experience whatsoever

I've never seen one with a lens on it.

--Woody

Mike Kanze wrote:

Pugs,

Not to disclose anything but IIRC the Cheeze-wiz radar is way up beyond the
ECM reception range in the 'truder (and certainly the other fighitng
drumstick the Prowler)

Wouldn't surprise me.

Add to my list of rhetoricals:

* Can we effectively counter our OWN weapons in a training situation - or
otherwise?

Not an idle question, given the propensity for our stuff to wind up in other
folks' hands - like A-4s to the Argentines (the Brits must have loved us for
that one), Stingers to the Afghan guerillas or F-14s to the Shah.

Example: During the VN war, a barely feet-dry A-6B pickled a Shrike at a
NVN SAM site. The Shrike made for the juiciest emitter it could detect -
which was NOT the FanSong but the PIRAZ small boy sitting out in the Gulf of
Tonkin. Only the quick action of RED CROWN shutting down all its radars
saved it. This incident led to the "no turn shots" rule which the A-6Bs
followed from thereafter. (The passage of time has made me fuzzy on the
precise details of this one. Better info invited.)

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same incident, but Worden was nailed by
a Shrike in the GoT in 1972. Mission-killed her but good; I think it took her
several hours to get a radar up. Some years back I was taking a tour of her
during SF Fleet Week. The tour guide happened to be a radar ET whose job was
maintaining the SPG-55s. I'd read about the incident before this so asked him
if anyone on the ship was aware of it. He said, oh sure, it was part of the
ship's history, and there were still dents in the back of some of the SPG-55
housings from the attack.

I've always wondered if the Shrike was going for the S-band SPS-48 or the C-band
SPS-10 or SPG-55. Guess it depends what flavor of Fansong was in the area.

Guy

"Mike Kanze" wrote...

The way the pattern was designed, the CIWS wasn't SUPPOSED to be hot until
after the aircraft passed over the ship (perpendicular to the ship's course).

Clearly, Murphy-san was on duty that day.

I spent 3 years towing targets at in A-4s at VC-8 in the late 70s, and a little
bit in A-6s at VA-165 in the late 80s. We briefed with all sorts of NATO ships
shooting all sorts of guns. IIRC, CIWS was just in OPEVAL while I was at VC-8,
and we were among the first to drag TDUs for them. I've only seen or heard of a
couple early shots (none with CIWS, except that Japanese one) in all that
time...

Some random rhetoricals, all made without any knowledge of the situational
details:

* Thoroughness of the brief? (Especially when more than one language is
involved.)

Probably not a factor. The early shots I am familiar with were after briefings
just as thorough as any other. More likely a cowboy gun boss or Ops O.


* Pre-exercise affirmative demonstrated knowledge of range safety procedures
by all involved - in English?

Again, not usually a factor. All exercises I participated in had
English-speaking attendees for all briefings. Things like "Don't shoot until
the aircraft calls 'Cleared to fire'!" and accompanying diagrams on the
chalkboard showing the tow airplane overhead the ship were standard and well
understood.


* And so on...

The answers are there, and you don't need the Home Depot guy to find them.

I haven't read the report of the Japanese incident, but it was an anomaly if
those were factors.

I learned to Tow the TDU in VC-12 while TAD in the early 80's.
Then some one learned that I had this "skill" in my VA-196 I became the
airwing TGT expert. The deal was that there was no way a reel could be repaired
on the ship so once we birdcaged the 35,000 feet of wire on the reel we were
done for at least 3 months while the reels wer shipped back to Cubi for I lever
repairs. So I got to tow for the Connies Cheez Wiz as well as the small boys.
For the c-wiz we ran out only 10,000 feet of wire. The presentation had to be
pretty close since the radar/computer had to evaluate the TGT as a threat
otherwise it wouldn't shoot. On a perpendicular run you would actualy fly over
the bow of the ship at about 3k and hope the TDU was in the less than 500'
altitude but above the bridge hight.And would pass just aft of the ship, (lots
of kentucky windage used to figure that out!) It was a real bad deal to drag
the tgt through the ship as people had been killed in the past and needless to
say a carreer ender for the flight crews regardless of the damage inflicted.
I prefered the parallel presentation safer for all involved, ( I don't think
the black shoes had any clue how much more difficult the perp presentation was)
anyway on this particulaer run it was for the Connie.We made several cold runs
and the gunners made sure everthing was working. It was my understanding that
they had some one standing behind the Cwiz that would actually look to see were
the thing was aiming before they gave a cleared to fire to avoid the drumstick
attack. Anyway the first hot pass they fired but didn't get any hits so I set
up for a second pass. I waited til I was about 1.5 dme outbound gave a cleared
to fire the first 5 rounds went right through the TDU it did a split s into the
water with a tug on the wire felt in the plane. The radar was so good it
started to track and shoot up the wire scoreing several hit on the wire itself
! It also birdcagged the wire so the Cag gunner was happy since that was one
more that was going off the ship on the next unrep.
In the wardroom that evening I saw the gun boss and chidded him about taking 2
runs to bag the tgt. apparently it was the first time in over 5 years that it
had taken 2 runs and they were pretty much all bummed out over the situation.

I'm glad I never had to fly against the cwiz because if it worked it was
deadly.


Any way regardless of the outcome of the Cwiz shoot if there was any rounds
shot at the Tgt it was SOP to cut the wire and jettison the TDU since it may
have DU smeared all over it.


As an aside, I know that the CIWS was a really good shot. I never reeled a
target back in.

Then there was the A-A missle shoots with 30,000' feet of wire out being
dragged.

Sparky