Plane with no stall warning device?

Don Tuite wrote in
news
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 03:49:16 -0000, Marty Shapiro
wrote:

The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device!

It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger
angels of attack, but you are still well above stall.

A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to
get stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back,
you descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the horizon.
You can turn with just the ailerons as you are descending.

What happens if you yank the sitck back?

Or if you start to apply rudder to accelerate a turn and then apply
opposite aileron to keep from banking too steeply and just keep on
crossing the controls while you bleed off airspeed?

Just curious. I'm sure the results in the Socata are benign.

Don

I've gotten a slight stall break in a 3/4 power on stall. Very benign with
a slight fall off to the right which was easily countered with ruddder.
With full power and no flaps, I've approached stall buffet, but at that
point I was more than 30 degrees nose high and felt like I was going to
tumble out of my seat backwards. And, at the onset of stall buffet, I was
still climbing!

The Rallye is a STOL aircraft with oversized control surfaces and Fowler
flaps. I have done turns starting from a maximum forward slip and didn't
notice any adverse behavior, but I was probably 10 knots above stall.

I've done 45 degree banked turns at MCA and found the aircraft handling to
be smooth and solid. One of my partners has gone to 60 degrees bank at MCA
and said he had the same results.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

In article , Marty Shapiro
wrote:

It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger angels of
attack, but you are still well above stall.

Those wouldn't be the angels of death, by chance, would they?

EDR wrote in
:

In article , Marty Shapiro
wrote:

It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger
angels of attack, but you are still well above stall.

Those wouldn't be the angels of death, by chance, would they?

Only if I attach something to the 4 hard points standard on the Rallye
235E!

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

The Socata Rallye has a stall warning!
Their famous automatic leading edge slats are it.
At least, that's what I use them mainly for. They are great speed
brakes too.
I do not pay much attention to the air speed at take off or on short
final.
When I see the leading edge go forward about 4 inches from the corner
of my left eye, I know it is time to have a look at the dials.

To my opinion these are the best stall warnings one can have.
Instead of a lot of noise(a Rallye is noisy enough) and some red
light, they keep the stall away for about 15 kts.
This said, do not try to flare a Rallye at too high speed.
The slats pop out and you go up again.

And they keep the Socata leading-edge-slat-roller-division going.

Regards,
Kees
MS880B


Marty Shapiro wrote in message ...
Roy Smith wrote in news:roy-
:

Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:

§**23.207 *Stall warning.
[...]
(b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight.

Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
certified without stall warning devices?

The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device!

It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger angels of
attack, but you are still well above stall.

A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to get
stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back, you
descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the horizon. You can
turn with just the ailerons as you are descending.

(Kees Mies) wrote in
om:

The Socata Rallye has a stall warning!
Their famous automatic leading edge slats are it.
At least, that's what I use them mainly for. They are great speed
brakes too.
I do not pay much attention to the air speed at take off or on short
final.
When I see the leading edge go forward about 4 inches from the corner
of my left eye, I know it is time to have a look at the dials.

To my opinion these are the best stall warnings one can have.
Instead of a lot of noise(a Rallye is noisy enough) and some red
light, they keep the stall away for about 15 kts.
This said, do not try to flare a Rallye at too high speed.
The slats pop out and you go up again.

And they keep the Socata leading-edge-slat-roller-division going.

Regards,
Kees
MS880B


Marty Shapiro wrote in message
...
Roy Smith wrote in news:roy-
:

Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:

§**23.207 *Stall warning.
[...]
(b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of
flight.

Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device
(some visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify
a plane without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples
of planes certified without stall warning devices?

The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device!

It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger
angels of attack, but you are still well above stall.

A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to
get stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back,
you descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the
horizon. You can turn with just the ailerons as you are descending.


Under the definition of stall warning in the US FAR §23.207 (which
references §23.1185), the automatic leading edge slat deployment is NOT a
stall warning.

Although the automatic leading edge slat deployment meets the requirement
of §23.207(c) where warning is required at least 5 knots above stall, it
does NOT meet the requirement of §23.207(d) "When following procedures
furnished in accordance with §23.1585, the stall warning must not occur
during a takeoff with all engines operating, a takeoff continued with one
engine inoperative, or during an approach to landing." 23.1585 refers to
the required aircraft operating procedures which include Vx, Vy, etc.

In the Rallye 235E, the slats will automatically deploy at rotation and
remain deployed at both Vx and Vy. As you transition from Vy to cruise
climb, they retract. They also deploy on landing at about Vref. At Vx, Vy,
and Vref, the automatic deployment of the leading edge slats violate the
FAR requirements for a stall warning.

The slats will sometimes extend & retract in light chop at cruise speed (Va
and above). I've never had a stall horn in a Piper or Cessna sound off in
light chop.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

Marty Shapiro wrote in message ...
(Kees Mies) wrote in
om:

The Socata Rallye has a stall warning!
Their famous automatic leading edge slats are it.
At least, that's what I use them mainly for. They are great speed
brakes too.
I do not pay much attention to the air speed at take off or on short
final.
When I see the leading edge go forward about 4 inches from the corner
of my left eye, I know it is time to have a look at the dials.

To my opinion these are the best stall warnings one can have.
Instead of a lot of noise(a Rallye is noisy enough) and some red
light, they keep the stall away for about 15 kts.
This said, do not try to flare a Rallye at too high speed.
The slats pop out and you go up again.

And they keep the Socata leading-edge-slat-roller-division going.

Regards,
Kees
MS880B


Marty Shapiro wrote in message
...
Roy Smith wrote in news:roy-
:

Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:

§**23.207 *Stall warning.
[...]
(b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of
flight.

Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device
(some visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify
a plane without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples
of planes certified without stall warning devices?

The SOCATA Rallye does NOT have a stall warning device!

It has automatic leading edge slats which will pop out at larger
angels of attack, but you are still well above stall.

A power off stall is very interesting in this aircraft. You start to
get stall buffett and, if you simply hold the yoke all the way back,
you descend a little over 1000 fpm with the nose level on the
horizon. You can turn with just the ailerons as you are descending.


Under the definition of stall warning in the US FAR §23.207 (which
references §23.1185), the automatic leading edge slat deployment is NOT a
stall warning.

Although the automatic leading edge slat deployment meets the requirement
of §23.207(c) where warning is required at least 5 knots above stall, it
does NOT meet the requirement of §23.207(d) "When following procedures
furnished in accordance with §23.1585, the stall warning must not occur
during a takeoff with all engines operating, a takeoff continued with one
engine inoperative, or during an approach to landing." 23.1585 refers to
the required aircraft operating procedures which include Vx, Vy, etc.

In the Rallye 235E, the slats will automatically deploy at rotation and
remain deployed at both Vx and Vy. As you transition from Vy to cruise
climb, they retract. They also deploy on landing at about Vref. At Vx, Vy,
and Vref, the automatic deployment of the leading edge slats violate the
FAR requirements for a stall warning.

The slats will sometimes extend & retract in light chop at cruise speed (Va
and above). I've never had a stall horn in a Piper or Cessna sound off in
light chop.

Hi,

Nice research.
I did some myself.
Under KEES' FAR §58112.fgg(c) is stated:
The installation of a stall warning device has NO relationship with
the pilots'/operator/owners' sense of humor.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Researching a question from a club member, I read in the FAR's:

§ 23.207 Stall warning.
[...]
(b) The stall warning may be furnished either through the inherent
aerodynamic qualities of the airplane or by a device that will give
clearly distinguishable indications under expected conditions of flight.

Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
certified without stall warning devices?


My Aeronca 7AC has no mechanical stall warning device. Few aircraft of that
vintage do.

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 04:21:48 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
certified without stall warning devices?


My Aeronca 7AC has no mechanical stall warning device. Few aircraft of that
vintage do.

The Citabria I learned to fly on (7ECA) was licensed under the same
certificate as the 7AC, and it didn't have a stall warning device.

They are certified, of course, but very few of the 25,000 homebuilts in the
US have mechanical stall warning systems. Of course, the bracing wires of
my Fly Baby sing "Nearer My God to Thee" when I get too slow.... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

In article , Roy Smith
writes:

Every plane I've ever flown has a mechanical stall warning device (some
visual, some aural), but apparantly it's possible to certify a plane
without one. Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
certified without stall warning devices?


The IAI 1124 Westwind jet I fly does not have any stall warning devices
installed. I have not taken it to a full stall and break, but it does give
plenty of warning, via buffeting, of an impending stall.

G. Lee
(If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it ain't fixed, don't fly it.)

Does anybody know of any real life examples of planes
certified without stall warning devices?

Aeronca Champ 7CCM---so much as they are not "airplanes" I've not yet seen a
sailplane with a stall warning device. Funny, considering how much time we
spend banked to 45 degrees or more just above stall. Oh that's right, we
become "one" with the plane, don't need no stinken stall warning. Mac