High Performance Single Engine Choices

On 8 Dec 2003 06:16:34 -0800, (Nathan
Young) wrote:

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ...
Just out of curiosity, what is the fastest single-engine aircraft
available and how fast does it go? -Sami

If you will consider experimentals, the Lancair IV-P is the king.
4-seats, 330mph TAS, pressurized. Price tag is $350-500k depending on
options.

The turbo charged Glasair III is way up there too, but it's only two
seats and a bit more snug than the IV-P. Then again you can pull 4 to
6 Gs without worry either. That is if they were on purpose.:-))


Fastest production is probably the Mooney 252 series (now called
TLS/Bravo). These will do 220 KTAS. For new planes, the pricetag is
similar to the Lancair, although an older 252 would be $150k+.

Don't forget the new Lancair production models. They have cruise
speeds right up there with the conventional, high performance retracts
Over 200 MPH and fixed gear to boot. Meaning a low time pilot with a
big billfold could get insurance. You are still looking at 300 grand
plus, but they sure are nice inside.


An early 1980 A36 TC or turbonormalized will do 200 kts and will have
the six seats. Price is around $200k.

You can also easily spend 250 to 300 grand in the same range.
In 84 they changed to the new, conventional separate yokes instead of
using the throw over, or massive cross bar on the dual yokes. From
there on they start getting expensive.


Keep in mind these are not normal operating speeds, but maximum cruise
speeds. You probably won't make it to 2000hrs after overhaul if you
run the engine at 75% or greater power required to achieve these

You'll get argument here too.
Some, me included, figure an engine will last the longest when
working. Any certified engine should make TBO if flown regularly
whether at 60% or 75%. If they don't have a limitation, they would
probably do as well at 80%.

I run 75%, except for landing, take off, maneuvering and approaches.
I'm nearing TBO and the engine still uses a pint or less in 25 hours.
Not having an oil filter (just a screen to take out the chunks), I
change every 25 hours.

At 75% I can figure an honest 160 knots true on 13.5 to 14 GPH with a
bit of room to spare. A high percentage of the older Bos, be they
straight tail or "V" have had the Deshannon speed mods done such as
the thick, one piece speed sloped windshields and gap seals.

We ran the old Cherokee 180 at 75% as well and it's gone through two
majors and is ready for a new engine. Every time it went way beyond
TBO, but the guys decided to bite the bullet and spend the money at
300 and 500 hours over.

As far as efficiency it's really difficult to beat the old Comanche
180.
speeds.

For the $75-120k pricerange you mentioned, an N thru-V model V35
Bonanza would fit your requirements.

As will the Debonairs with the larger engines and the early F-33s.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

-Nathan

On 8 Dec 2003 06:16:34 -0800, (Nathan Young)
wrote:

Fastest production is probably the Mooney 252 series (now called
TLS/Bravo). These will do 220 KTAS. For new planes, the pricetag is
similar to the Lancair, although an older 252 would be $150k+.

Just a small nit. The Mooney 252 and the TLS/Bravo are different
airplanes, although both are turbocharged.

They have different airframes, type certificates, model numbers, etc.

If memory serves, the TLS/Bravo is an M20M, and the 252 is an M20K.

(The M20 series includes, I believe, just about every airplane that Mooney
produced except, perhaps, for the Mooney Mite).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

what I would do is call my insurance company with the types of planes you
want, ask them ya or nay on them and a general price range for insurance on
each of them. Depending on your insurance company, you will see they wont
insure some planes for you, they may also ask you, if you dont have it yet, to
get your instrument rating. Talking to them may help you narrow down what your
wanting really quick


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

Folks, I am a first-time aircraft buyer. I have a general idea of the
type of aircraft I want, but am having trouble narrowing the list down.
Here is my general list of wants/needs:

1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no HP/complex
time)

I have been thinking about a Piper Comanche 260 and a Piper Turbo Arrow
III/IV. I was considering a Mooney M20J, but they feel a little cramped
in the cabin to me. What I am looking for is the best dollars/kts
airplane (what we call price/performance in the computer biz) that meets
the above requirements. I would really appreciate suggestions and advice.

-Sami

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote
1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no HP/complex
time)

No airplane in that class really has a good safety record (in the
sense that something like a C-172 does). These airplanes are used for
transportation, not training and going around the patch. Virtually
any certified tri-gear landplane that can be bought for $120K in good
condition is going to be insurable for you, but anything in the
performance class you want will require 10-25 hours dual and a big hit
in the first year (think $3K+).

I have been thinking about a Piper Comanche 260 and a Piper Turbo Arrow
III/IV. I was considering a Mooney M20J, but they feel a little cramped
in the cabin to me. What I am looking for is the best dollars/kts
airplane (what we call price/performance in the computer biz) that meets
the above requirements. I would really appreciate suggestions and advice.

First off, never compare top speeds between normally aspirated and
turbo - they are not comparable. The turbo needs to go high to get
its speed, and that means you never go very fast when Westbound.
Pretty quick going East, though. Unless you NEED to go high (meaning
you fly in the mountains) a turbo is rarely cost-effective.

The Comanche 260 is a good choice for what you want - make sure it has
at least 84 gallons of fuel. The Mooney is cramped in the cabin - if
you're going to fly long legs, you won't enjoy it unless you are thin.
Other planes you might consider:

A 1960's era Bonanza. Most Bonanzas of that era don't make book speed
because they were tested clean (without antennas) but they're still
the fastest thing around with a reasonably roomy cabin.

A Viking. Wood wings are an issue (get one from a dry climate and
hangar it) but purchase price is low, and the speed is there. The
14-19 is the tailwheel version - way cool, but insurance will be an
issue.

You may also consider twins. The only ones that really fit your
mission profile while maintianing similar operating costs are the Twin
Comanche and Beech Travel Air. Insurance will be higher ($4K+) if you
are instrument rated, and ridiculous ($6K+) if you are not. Purchase
price will be lower than a comparably performing single.

Michael

(Michael) wrote in message . com...
"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote
1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no HP/complex
time)

No airplane in that class really has a good safety record (in the
sense that something like a C-172 does). These airplanes are used for
transportation, not training and going around the patch. Virtually
any certified tri-gear landplane that can be bought for $120K in good
condition is going to be insurable for you, but anything in the
performance class you want will require 10-25 hours dual and a big hit
in the first year (think $3K+).


Insurance cost or instructional requirement doesn't sound prohibitive
or a 'big hit', based on your figures. If a person is spending $120k
on an aircraft, an extra $1500 for insurance for the first year is not
all that significant (particularly if the insurance cost goes down to
a lower level in year #2.) Likewise, the cost of 25 hours of dual
instruction ($1,000?) also looks like money well spent, and not
significant in the context of a $120k purchase.

I am sure an aircraft such the one the poster is contemplating will
cost him $100-125k. An extra $3k to become comfortable flying it
over the long-term sounds like a good deal.

John

John wrote:
(Michael) wrote in message . com...

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote

1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no HP/complex
time)

No airplane in that class really has a good safety record (in the
sense that something like a C-172 does). These airplanes are used for
transportation, not training and going around the patch. Virtually
any certified tri-gear landplane that can be bought for $120K in good
condition is going to be insurable for you, but anything in the
performance class you want will require 10-25 hours dual and a big hit
in the first year (think $3K+).



Insurance cost or instructional requirement doesn't sound prohibitive
or a 'big hit', based on your figures. If a person is spending $120k
on an aircraft, an extra $1500 for insurance for the first year is not
all that significant (particularly if the insurance cost goes down to
a lower level in year #2.) Likewise, the cost of 25 hours of dual
instruction ($1,000?) also looks like money well spent, and not
significant in the context of a $120k purchase.

I am sure an aircraft such the one the poster is contemplating will
cost him $100-125k. An extra $3k to become comfortable flying it
over the long-term sounds like a good deal.

John
He was saying the ins. was 15 thousand.

On 8 Dec 2003 11:36:25 -0800, (Michael) wrote:

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote
1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no HP/complex
time)

No airplane in that class really has a good safety record (in the
sense that something like a C-172 does). These airplanes are used for
transportation, not training and going around the patch. Virtually
any certified tri-gear landplane that can be bought for $120K in good
condition is going to be insurable for you, but anything in the
performance class you want will require 10-25 hours dual and a big hit
in the first year (think $3K+).

True with the dual, but ...
I don't pay near that with 80,000 full hull coverage and never did.
Max was around $1500 per year.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

I have been thinking about a Piper Comanche 260 and a Piper Turbo Arrow
III/IV. I was considering a Mooney M20J, but they feel a little cramped
in the cabin to me. What I am looking for is the best dollars/kts
airplane (what we call price/performance in the computer biz) that meets
the above requirements. I would really appreciate suggestions and advice.

First off, never compare top speeds between normally aspirated and
turbo - they are not comparable. The turbo needs to go high to get
its speed, and that means you never go very fast when Westbound.
Pretty quick going East, though. Unless you NEED to go high (meaning
you fly in the mountains) a turbo is rarely cost-effective.

The Comanche 260 is a good choice for what you want - make sure it has
at least 84 gallons of fuel. The Mooney is cramped in the cabin - if
you're going to fly long legs, you won't enjoy it unless you are thin.
Other planes you might consider:

A 1960's era Bonanza. Most Bonanzas of that era don't make book speed
because they were tested clean (without antennas) but they're still
the fastest thing around with a reasonably roomy cabin.

A Viking. Wood wings are an issue (get one from a dry climate and
hangar it) but purchase price is low, and the speed is there. The
14-19 is the tailwheel version - way cool, but insurance will be an
issue.

You may also consider twins. The only ones that really fit your
mission profile while maintianing similar operating costs are the Twin
Comanche and Beech Travel Air. Insurance will be higher ($4K+) if you
are instrument rated, and ridiculous ($6K+) if you are not. Purchase
price will be lower than a comparably performing single.

Michael

Does anyone have, or know where I can find, an ordered list of high
performance single-engine (HPSE) aircraft according to their crusing speed?

It would even be cooler to have (average) retail prices in the list.
If not, I will work on a project to put such a list together if others
are interested. What I would really like to see is which aircraft has
the best purchase-price-to-speed ratio. Someone has to have created
such a list somewhere?!

-Sami

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:
Folks, I am a first-time aircraft buyer. I have a general idea of the
type of aircraft I want, but am having trouble narrowing the list down.
Here is my general list of wants/needs:

1. Fast: 160 kts
2. Price range: $75K-$120K
3. Four Seater
4. Range: 800nm
5. Useful Payload (with full fuel); 650lbs
6. Retains its value well over time
7. Reliable: Engine TBO of 2000 hrs, good saftey record
8. Insurable for a pilot with only 350 hrs PIC experience (no HP/complex
time)


I have been thinking about a Piper Comanche 260 and a Piper Turbo Arrow
III/IV. I was considering a Mooney M20J, but they feel a little cramped
in the cabin to me. What I am looking for is the best dollars/kts
airplane (what we call price/performance in the computer biz) that meets
the above requirements. I would really appreciate suggestions and advice.

-Sami

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

What I would really like to see is which aircraft has
the best purchase-price-to-speed ratio. Someone has to have created
such a list somewhere?!

A few minutes after such a list is published in any widely-read forum, it will
be out of date. The prices on the "best" aircraft will jump about 30% shortly
thereafter.

At least, this is what happens every time a magazine like "Flying" publishes
their "Ten Best Deals" list. Stinsons recently got a boost from an AOPA article.
Good luck finding one at anything near the price AOPA quoted.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:

What I would really like to see is which aircraft has
the best purchase-price-to-speed ratio. Someone has to have created
such a list somewhere?!

Let's see:

Mooney 201: 90,000/170 = USD 529/kt
Cessna 172: 50,000/120 = USD 416/kt
Cherokee 140: 30,000/105 = USD 285/kt
Cessna 150: 20,000/90 = USD 222/kt

Looks like the 150 is the way to go.


All the best,


David