Looking for non-biased resource

I never said it would be cheaper, I was just providing some ideas for
him as to how to obtain representative costs.

Companies like ours can provide him un-biased advise. We've been
doing very detailed aircraft studies for our clients for over 10
years. See www.le-aviation.com Quick and dirty numbers can be
obtained from companies such as www.conklindd.com and Pro Pilot
Magazine produces a planning guide once a year that can give you some
idea.

Another big reason nowadays is security for corporate executives. And
if you consider the cost per hour of a CEO in the equation, then often a
corporate aircraft will save the company money compared to using public
transportation and the additional time that consumes. Keep in mind that
many CEO's make upwards of $1MM annually. If you figure 2,000 working
hours, that is $500/hour. If you add 4-6 hours to every trip for the
CEO to take an airline flight, that is a fair chunk of change. It may
still not make the corporate airplane more cost effective, but combined
with the other advantages you list above, it can make the decision much
more logical.

And if you use a fractional ownership program, it gets even better.


Matt

Like I said, it's not a money issue, but others such as security like
you said, even though the security on commercial aircraft is better
than on corporate. You just know who your passengers are on the
corporate aircraft. Look at it any way you want, but money is never
the justification.

Think about it this way - You can't fly an aircraft at a direct
operation cost of $4,000 per hour or so and save money flying a $500
per hour person. Fractional's are somewhat better if you fly under
about 300 hours per year, but you still pay a substantial monthly
management fee and an occupied per-hour fee. An advantage to
fractional is you don't pay for deadheads on domestic flights.

The average corporate aircraft fly's about 360 hours per year with a
few upwards of 1000. Multiply that by the D.O.C.'s and the variable
costs and you can see it adds up fast. A guy that earns ONLY $1M per
year can't afford to play that game.

To all us poor people, the cost of something or what we can save may
be all-important, but to a corporation or the mega-wealthily, trust
me, it's a lot further down the list. These aircraft are generally
used for very good reasons, but saving money is not one of them.

Don


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Matt Whiting writes:


Another big reason nowadays is security for corporate executives. And
if you consider the cost per hour of a CEO in the equation, then often a
corporate aircraft will save the company money compared to using public
transportation and the additional time that consumes. Kee

Beware the Key Man rules -- usually your insurance carrier {if not
common sense} restricts the # of PHB's traveling on a given flight.
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

We develop, market, sell, install and support a software package to fortune
250 companies. Salesmen, sales engineers and support staff travel to each
customer at least twice. It only takes 1 day to install our software and 1
day to train the trainers. Often due to scheduling and drive time from the
closest commercial airport, our installation techs can only install one
customer a week because they require an extra travel day on each end of the
trip. If each of my teams can dependably install two a week, I've doubled
my billing.

The short answer is hire more installation teams and fly them all
commercial. With that solution, I've increased my travel budget and my
payroll burden, decreased productivity and now I have twice the number of
people sitting on their thumbs in airport bars or watching a movie in a
hotel room because the last flight out of Podunk left at 4:15 and the next
one isn't scheduled until 4:15 tomorrow.

Ed


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Don Hammer wrote:

Matt,

My company is in the business of doing those kinds of studies. One
thing I can say with confidence is there is no way you can own a jet
cheaper than taking the airlines. When people or companies decide to
get their own aircraft, it is some of the same reasons you own your
own car. Public transportation is certainly cheaper.

Ego - I always wanted my own (The Jones's deal)
My own space
Point to point transportation
Can't get there from here
Fits my lifestyle

Can it be cheaper? - never. I don't get involved with small older
jets, but budget about $1M a year to operate a larger one.

I never said it would be cheaper, I was just providing some ideas for
him as to how to obtain representative costs.

Another big reason nowadays is security for corporate executives. And
if you consider the cost per hour of a CEO in the equation, then often a
corporate aircraft will save the company money compared to using public
transportation and the additional time that consumes. Keep in mind that
many CEO's make upwards of $1MM annually. If you figure 2,000 working
hours, that is $500/hour. If you add 4-6 hours to every trip for the
CEO to take an airline flight, that is a fair chunk of change. It may
still not make the corporate airplane more cost effective, but combined
with the other advantages you list above, it can make the decision much
more logical.

And if you use a fractional ownership program, it gets even better.


Matt

Not looking for cheaper. We are hurting on point to point travel,
scheduling, long security delays, last minute changes, no advance purchase.
In our favor, much of our expense is billed directly back to the clients up
to a pre-determined amount.

"Don Hammer" wrote in message
...
Matt,

My company is in the business of doing those kinds of studies. One
thing I can say with confidence is there is no way you can own a jet
cheaper than taking the airlines. When people or companies decide to
get their own aircraft, it is some of the same reasons you own your
own car. Public transportation is certainly cheaper.

Ego - I always wanted my own (The Jones's deal)
My own space
Point to point transportation
Can't get there from here
Fits my lifestyle

Can it be cheaper? - never. I don't get involved with small older
jets, but budget about $1M a year to operate a larger one.


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"nobody" wrote in message
om...
Not looking for cheaper. We are hurting on point to point travel,
scheduling, long security delays, last minute changes, no advance
purchase.
In our favor, much of our expense is billed directly back to the clients
up
to a pre-determined amount.


Good luck getting client reimbursement if you're flying private. I'd be a
little concerned about how it appears to them- clients like to feel like
they're getting MIT Ph.Ds at the same price they pay for Mexican gardeners.
When the team shows up in a private jet it screams "money coming out the
wazoo" which makes me wonder whether you're charging me way too much for the
software. Even getting them to cover the equivalent of an airline ticket
might be touchy. Last IT consulting shop I was at, the clients screamed
bloody murder about covering any ticket over $300, even cross-country. It
may be worth it ultimately, but if you're billing $100k of travel to clients
now, that money might be out the door if you do get a plane.

-cwk.

I know what you're talking about. I was a road warrior for 7 years doing
SAP consulting. We're not the first contractor they've had in house. They
know what they're paying for airfare already. Typically, they pay
refundable Y fare rates. It's spelled out in the P.O. what we will expense
to the client and what the cap is.

I wonder how your clients knew how you flew. Most of my teams have enough
miles that they are traveling platinum elite status and almost without
exception, fly first class for the price of refundable coach. I'm not aware
that the clients have any idea that my teams are traveling first class. The
clients certainly haven't complained. If we went to private jet, I would
expect the same level of discretion from my team.

Ed

"C Kingsbury" wrote in message
nk.net...

"nobody" wrote in message
om...
Not looking for cheaper. We are hurting on point to point travel,
scheduling, long security delays, last minute changes, no advance
purchase.
In our favor, much of our expense is billed directly back to the clients
up
to a pre-determined amount.


Good luck getting client reimbursement if you're flying private. I'd be a
little concerned about how it appears to them- clients like to feel like
they're getting MIT Ph.Ds at the same price they pay for Mexican
gardeners.
When the team shows up in a private jet it screams "money coming out the
wazoo" which makes me wonder whether you're charging me way too much for
the
software. Even getting them to cover the equivalent of an airline ticket
might be touchy. Last IT consulting shop I was at, the clients screamed
bloody murder about covering any ticket over $300, even cross-country. It
may be worth it ultimately, but if you're billing $100k of travel to
clients
now, that money might be out the door if you do get a plane.

-cwk.

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:08:09 GMT, "nobody" wrote:



I had a brief meeting with my CEO last week. Our company spends 80K - 120K
annually on commercial flights. He knows I am a private pilot and he asked
me if I could prepare a comparative analysis of alternatives such as
fractional ownership, outright ownership, leaseback or charter.

I don't know jack about jets. My assumption is that I'm looking at a jet
versus a King Air or similar. We're based in Houston and regularly fly to
both coasts with 3 - 6 passengers.

Me either, but I do know enough to say that outright ownership is
going to be impossible for $100k/year, especially if opportunity cost
or loan payments are considered. The loan payment on most jets will
approach $100k/year. Throw in a hangar rent, insurance, and a
corporate pilot (or two), and you will have hit $100k without going
anywhere. You could probably leaseback the jet to the local
charter/FBO operation to help defray the fixed costs, but I have a
hard time believing a jet leaseback can make it financially feasible.

Charter will be expensive too, but then again, so are the airlines if
the trips are last minute and to out of the way destinations. It is
easy to spend $1000/ticket. If you are flying 3-6 people via $1000
airline tickets, givent the time savings and flexibility involved, a
charter may make sense instead.

2.) There are several business jet models available for 1,000,000 like the
Hawker DH 125, Sabre, Citation 500, Lear 24 and 25, Jet Commander. Short of
looking up all the AD's for each variation of each model, where can I find
an honest review of those models with both pros and cons?

3.) Is $1,000,000 reasonable or should I expect those aircraft to be in
need of some serious work, AD compliance, or expensive upgrades to meet RVSM
certification?

Many of the older jets use fuel inefficient engines that will increase
hourly fuel costs. Also, many older jets are so loud that they are
limited in terms of when & what airports they can use. One other
consideration is runway length. If you are flying to out of the way
destinations, a 350 kt Citation (which requires less than 3500ft of
runway) may be much quicker door-door than a 500kt Lear that requires
5000+ ft runways.

Ops figures for several of the Citation series can be found at:
http://www.risingup.com

Last, I would spend some time at this website - NBAA has published
many articles that address your situation and your questions.
http://web.nbaa.org/public/about/library/

-Nathan

"Nathan Young" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:08:09 GMT, "nobody" wrote:



I had a brief meeting with my CEO last week. Our company spends 80K -
120K
annually on commercial flights. He knows I am a private pilot and he
asked
me if I could prepare a comparative analysis of alternatives such as
fractional ownership, outright ownership, leaseback or charter.

I don't know jack about jets. My assumption is that I'm looking at a jet
versus a King Air or similar. We're based in Houston and regularly fly
to
both coasts with 3 - 6 passengers.

Me either, but I do know enough to say that outright ownership is
going to be impossible for $100k/year, especially if opportunity cost
or loan payments are considered. The loan payment on most jets will
approach $100k/year. Throw in a hangar rent, insurance, and a
corporate pilot (or two), and you will have hit $100k without going
anywhere. You could probably leaseback the jet to the local
charter/FBO operation to help defray the fixed costs, but I have a
hard time believing a jet leaseback can make it financially feasible.

Charter will be expensive too, but then again, so are the airlines if
the trips are last minute and to out of the way destinations. It is
easy to spend $1000/ticket. If you are flying 3-6 people via $1000
airline tickets, givent the time savings and flexibility involved, a
charter may make sense instead.

2.) There are several business jet models available for 1,000,000 like
the
Hawker DH 125, Sabre, Citation 500, Lear 24 and 25, Jet Commander. Short
of
looking up all the AD's for each variation of each model, where can I
find
an honest review of those models with both pros and cons?

3.) Is $1,000,000 reasonable or should I expect those aircraft to be in
need of some serious work, AD compliance, or expensive upgrades to meet
RVSM
certification?

Many of the older jets use fuel inefficient engines that will increase
hourly fuel costs. Also, many older jets are so loud that they are
limited in terms of when & what airports they can use. One other
consideration is runway length. If you are flying to out of the way
destinations, a 350 kt Citation (which requires less than 3500ft of
runway) may be much quicker door-door than a 500kt Lear that requires
5000+ ft runways.

Ops figures for several of the Citation series can be found at:
http://www.risingup.com

Last, I would spend some time at this website - NBAA has published
many articles that address your situation and your questions.
http://web.nbaa.org/public/about/library/

-Nathan





Knew there had to be a catch, thanks for clearing that up.
Ed

NBAA?

And accountant that specializes in aviation?

Blanche wrote:

NBAA?

National Business Aircraft Association.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.