About those anti-aviatoin newsgroups

* The BSA should not enjoy preferential treatment or be granted any
sort
of government support. As a private organization, they should be
self-sufficient if they wish to discriminate.

This argument was used against the Scouts here in Iowa City, and has
resulted in them being charged the "corporate rate" for using the schools
when they want to hold a meeting or function. Of course, this price is
impossibly high, and has resulted in the Scouts being driven out of the
schools.

Strangely enough, the Scouts presented a cost-benefit analysis to the School
Board during the debate, proving that for every penny the City "spent" on
the Scouts (by letting them use the schools for cheap) they received back
five-fold in donated work, landscaping done for "Eagle Scout" projects, etc.
The city actually *profited* from the Scouts, because they did work that the
school district would otherwise have to buy.

This argument did not sway the gay community, and the Scouts were
effectively banned.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:%U90b.183507$uu5.35115@sccrnsc04...

This argument was used against the Scouts here in Iowa City, and has
resulted in them being charged the "corporate rate" for using the schools
when they want to hold a meeting or function. Of course, this price is
impossibly high, and has resulted in the Scouts being driven out of the
schools.

Strangely enough, the Scouts presented a cost-benefit analysis to the
School
Board during the debate, proving that for every penny the City "spent" on
the Scouts (by letting them use the schools for cheap) they received back
five-fold in donated work, landscaping done for "Eagle Scout" projects,
etc.
The city actually *profited* from the Scouts, because they did work that
the
school district would otherwise have to buy.

This argument did not sway the gay community, and the Scouts were
effectively banned.


Cogent argument will never sway the gay community.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
.net...

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:%U90b.183507$uu5.35115@sccrnsc04...

This argument was used against the Scouts here in Iowa City, and has
resulted in them being charged the "corporate rate" for using the
schools
when they want to hold a meeting or function. Of course, this price is
impossibly high, and has resulted in the Scouts being driven out of the
schools.

Strangely enough, the Scouts presented a cost-benefit analysis to the
School
Board during the debate, proving that for every penny the City "spent"
on
the Scouts (by letting them use the schools for cheap) they received
back
five-fold in donated work, landscaping done for "Eagle Scout" projects,
etc.
The city actually *profited* from the Scouts, because they did work that
the
school district would otherwise have to buy.

This argument did not sway the gay community, and the Scouts were
effectively banned.


Cogent argument will never sway the gay community.

What a hoot McNicoll. I doubt you even know the definition of cogent. It
is not a valid, forceful, reasoned, cogent argument to say that a
discriminatory group (and the BSA is by admission) should be accorded the
discount rate use of public buildings because they do good deeds for the
people holding the reservations book. It may be fact, but it isn't a sound
argument. If it were, the gays would be out there planting trees and
flowers like crazy and demanding the same benefits. In fact though, as far
as I know, they just demand the same treatment based on legalities.

JB

P.S. I just casually wandered into this thread and found it interesting, if
grossly OT. I have to say though, that for someone with some obvious, at
least to me, intelligence, you've done the best job here of all the posters
of posting inane, shallow, childish responses. For God's sake man, try to
do better. LOL

Jay Honeck wrote:

* The BSA should not enjoy preferential treatment or be granted any
sort
of government support. As a private organization, they should be
self-sufficient if they wish to discriminate.

This argument was used against the Scouts here in Iowa City, and has
resulted in them being charged the "corporate rate" for using the schools
when they want to hold a meeting or function. Of course, this price is
impossibly high, and has resulted in the Scouts being driven out of the
schools.

Jay,

Would you feel the same way if the BSA had a no blacks or no Jews policy rather
than a no gays policy?

Margy

"Margy Natalie" wrote in message
...
|
|
| Jay Honeck wrote:
|
| * The BSA should not enjoy preferential treatment or be granted
any
| sort
| of government support. As a private organization, they should be
| self-sufficient if they wish to discriminate.
|
| This argument was used against the Scouts here in Iowa City, and has
| resulted in them being charged the "corporate rate" for using the
schools
| when they want to hold a meeting or function. Of course, this price is
| impossibly high, and has resulted in the Scouts being driven out of the
| schools.
|
| Jay,
|
| Would you feel the same way if the BSA had a no blacks or no Jews policy
rather
| than a no gays policy?
|

Would you object if gay groups that have a no straights policy were allowed
to use the schools for free?

Would you feel the same way if the BSA had a no blacks or no Jews policy
rather
than a no gays policy?

Well, Margy, if you are you asking if I would be upset that the Scouts were
banned from the schools for hypothetically banning Jewish and black members,
the answer is no. In your example, the Scouts (or any other group) would
quite deservedly have earned the wrath of the School Board and the Civil
Rights community by arbitrarily banning members based on skin color or
religion.

Apples and oranges.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
| "C J Campbell" wrote in message
| ...
| My personal feelings about the matter is that any private organization
| should be able to discriminate against any group that it wishes for any
| reason.
|
| I agree with you there. However:
|
| * The BSA should not enjoy preferential treatment or be granted any
sort
| of government support. As a private organization, they should be
| self-sufficient if they wish to discriminate.
|
| * As a former scout myself, I look forward to a day when in good
| conscience allow my own son to participate in the BSA.

You were able to participate in good conscience when you were younger, but
the BSA's policies have not changed. Instead of trying to force your views
on the Boy Scouts, why not help found another organization that espouses
what you believe?

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
You were able to participate in good conscience when you were younger

Out of pure ignorance, I assure you.

but the BSA's policies have not changed.

Sorry? You said earlier that the BSA doesn't want gays because they are
concerned that pedophiles would be a problem. However, when I was in the
Scouts, no one ever talked about pedophiles. It just wasn't anything anyone
worried about.

If the BSA's policies have not changed, they sure were nearly as concerned
about following them to the letter when I was a Scout as they are now.

Instead of trying to force your views on the Boy Scouts

What makes you think I'm trying to force my views on the Boy Scouts? Do you
understand the difference in meaning between the word "force" and the word
"persuade"?

why not help found another organization that espouses what you believe?

Even if I had the time and motivation to do so, I would never live to see a
new organization achieve what the BSA has achieved in terms of public
recognizance and acceptance. On the other hand, I genuinely believe that
the BSA *will* eventually modify their policies. The anti-gay attitude, in
the BSA and in society in general, will be a VERY long time before it goes
away 100%. Heck, we're still trying to get rid of racism.

But that attitude WILL eventually go away, and while there will be
stragglers for a long time, society in general (and, I believe, the Boy
Scouts) will no longer be anti-gay sooner rather than later. I feel it's a
lot more productive to try to help an existing organization come into the
modern era than to reinvent the wheel. Force them? No, not at all. But
education and persuasion goes a long way.

Pete

I refuse to support United Way and any other organization who
discriminates against the BSA.

Saw this year where UW did not meet their quota G

Won't meet if I have anything to say about it.

Big John


On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:28:17 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
wrote:

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
My personal feelings about the matter is that any private organization
should be able to discriminate against any group that it wishes for any
reason.

I agree with you there. However:

* The BSA should not enjoy preferential treatment or be granted any sort
of government support. As a private organization, they should be
self-sufficient if they wish to discriminate.

* As a former scout myself, I look forward to a day when in good
conscience allow my own son to participate in the BSA. The BSA has a lot of
great things to offer. I will continue to be vocal in my desire for the BSA
to change their policy, for this reason. Will I ask the government to force
a change? No, absolutely not. But if the change happens from within, as a
result of pressure from without, I see nothing wrong with that.

In other words, the BSA should be permitted to do what they feel is best.
However, they should not be surprised when they receive social criticism.

Pete

On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:53:10 -0500, Big John
wrote:

I refuse to support United Way and any other organization who
discriminates against the BSA.

The feeling is mutual in places, apparantly. Here in Portland Oregon
the BSA Councils no longer receive UW funding.

Pity, too. The BSA was one of the founding organizations behind the
United Way.

Rob