Rogue IFR

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
It assumes nothing at all. If a pilot reports he's in the clouds, then
any
other aircraft that is within 2000 feet horizontally, 1000 feet above, or
500 feet below the reporting aircraft MUST be in IMC.

ATC has no way of knowing that the VFR target in question is within those
limits.

Yes there was. You said ATC can't rely on PIREPs to KNOW something.
That's
obviously incorrect.

Wow. With the "...about the VFR target" implied, your misunderstanding was
understandable, if a bit surprising. But with it being called out
explicitly to you, your ignorance is downright shocking.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

ATC has no way of knowing that the VFR target in question is within those
limits.


Irrelevant.



Wow. With the "...about the VFR target" implied, your misunderstanding
was
understandable, if a bit surprising. But with it being called out
explicitly to you, your ignorance is downright shocking.


There was no "...about the VFR target" implied.

Where's your dissertation on ATC radar capabilities?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote

It assumes nothing at all. If a pilot reports he's in the
clouds, then any other
aircraft that is within 2000 feet horizontally, 1000 feet above,
or 500 feet below
the reporting aircraft MUST be in IMC.

ATC's definition may be different, but I found these defined on
the web.


From FAR Part 1
IFR conditions means weather conditions below the minimum for
flight under visual flight rules.

This seems to be the definition that you are using for IMC.



From http://www.visi.com/~lindowdy/aviation/glossary.htm
Glossary of Aviation Terms
IMC instrument meteorlogical conditions; unable to see visual
references outside the plane

This seems to be the definition that most mortal pilots use.

Bob Moore

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
...
ATC's definition may be different, but I found these defined on
the web.


From FAR Part 1
IFR conditions means weather conditions below the minimum for
flight under visual flight rules.

This seems to be the definition that you are using for IMC.



From http://www.visi.com/~lindowdy/aviation/glossary.htm
Glossary of Aviation Terms
IMC instrument meteorlogical conditions; unable to see visual
references outside the plane

This seems to be the definition that most mortal pilots use.

So is that "IN CLOULDS" only considered IMC, or is ON TOP considered IMC?

I don't think this is right. In Class B airspace, the only requirement is to be
clear of clounds. That means that an aircraft could be in the clouds at (for
example) 5,000 ft. and other aircraft could be VFR at 4,500 or 5,500, be clear
of the clouds and be quite legal.

Dave Reinhart


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

ATC doesn't have enroute radar capable of determining when another
aircraft is within those limits.


Enroute radar? Do you mean Air Route Surveillance Radar? Why are we
suddenly limited to ARSR for discussion purposes? Please, Pete, tell us
about the capabilities of ATC radar.


Furthermore, that assumes accurate reporting by the VFR target's
transponder. Again, an unidentified target would not qualify for
that assumption.


It assumes nothing at all. If a pilot reports he's in the clouds, then any
other
aircraft that is within 2000 feet horizontally, 1000 feet above, or 500 feet
below
the reporting aircraft MUST be in IMC.


There was no such part.


Yes there was. You said ATC can't rely on PIREPs to KNOW something. That's
obviously incorrect.

"David Reinhart" wrote in message
...

I don't think this is right. In Class B airspace, the only requirement is
to be
clear of clounds. That means that an aircraft could be in the clouds at
(for
example) 5,000 ft. and other aircraft could be VFR at 4,500 or 5,500, be
clear
of the clouds and be quite legal.


True, but since most airspace is other than Class B it is right in most
airspace.

BTW, this kind of scenario is a potential "gotcha" when leaving Class B airspace.
You can be flying along in Class B airspace, just above or below a cloud deck, exit
the Class Bravo and be instantly illegal when it comes to cloud clearance.

Dave Reinhart


David Reinhart wrote:

I don't think this is right. In Class B airspace, the only requirement is to be
clear of clounds. That means that an aircraft could be in the clouds at (for
example) 5,000 ft. and other aircraft could be VFR at 4,500 or 5,500, be clear
of the clouds and be quite legal.

Dave Reinhart


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

ATC doesn't have enroute radar capable of determining when another
aircraft is within those limits.


Enroute radar? Do you mean Air Route Surveillance Radar? Why are we
suddenly limited to ARSR for discussion purposes? Please, Pete, tell us
about the capabilities of ATC radar.


Furthermore, that assumes accurate reporting by the VFR target's
transponder. Again, an unidentified target would not qualify for
that assumption.


It assumes nothing at all. If a pilot reports he's in the clouds, then any
other
aircraft that is within 2000 feet horizontally, 1000 feet above, or 500 feet
below
the reporting aircraft MUST be in IMC.


There was no such part.


Yes there was. You said ATC can't rely on PIREPs to KNOW something. That's
obviously incorrect.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message nk.net...


PIREPs are assumed to be accurate.

Yes but as far as the FAA "officially" is concerned, they are "anecdotal" when it comes
to enforcement actions.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
...

Yes but as far as the FAA "officially" is concerned, they are "anecdotal"
when it comes to enforcement actions.


We're not talking about enforcement actions.