JFK

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 16:41:36 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:

The whole Berliner gaff is actually an urban legend. "Ich bin ein Berliner"
is grammatically correct.

I speak fluent German. What he said was, nominally, "I'm a jelly
donut". I bought them fresh in the Zurich Migros every week. One of my
roommates, a Berliner himself, confirmed it.

So there was
not tittering and no guffaws -- what he said was right.

Supportive Berliners knew what he meant, knew he was an American, knew
he was reaching out, and they all translated the gaffe into "Ich bin
Berliner", and cheered until their lungs contained only vacuum.

It's a kindness good hearted Germans usually extend to good hearted
visiting foreigners, in my experience, especially the ones that show
solidarity with them.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

Robert Perkins wrote:

It's a kindness good hearted Germans usually extend to good hearted
visiting foreigners, in my experience, especially the ones that show
solidarity with them.

I found that to be the case when I visited Bavaria. I well remember trying to
find the tour bus in Bayreuth. My brother and I were half lost, so I stopped a
young lady in a business suit (how they negotiate cobbled streets in 4" heels
is beyond me). I excused myself and said in my atrocious accent "Wo ist die
neuer schloss?"

There are at least three grammatical errors in those five words. Her eyebrows
went up in astonishment at the butchery I was doing to her language. She started
to smile, realized that that would be rude, and wiped it away, and then politely
told me (as near as I can tell) to continue another block, turn left, and it
would be on the right. I thanked her and we followed her directions. Found the
bus too.

George Patterson
They say nothing's certain except death and taxes. The thing is, death
doesn't get worse every time Congress goes into session.

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 21:59:57 -0500, "G.R. Patterson III"
wrote:

My brother and I were half lost, so I stopped a
young lady in a business suit (how they negotiate cobbled streets in 4" heels
is beyond me).

With precision. How else? (Some stereotypes are dead-on accurate; IMO
this is one of them.)

I excused myself and said in my atrocious accent "Wo ist die
neuer schloss?"

!! Oy. ;-)

Um, and, you forgot to capitalize the americanized 'r' sound in
'neuer'.

:-D

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Robert Perkins wrote:

It's a kindness good hearted Germans usually extend to good hearted
visiting foreigners, in my experience, especially the ones that show
solidarity with them.

I found that to be the case when I visited Bavaria. I well remember trying
to
find the tour bus in Bayreuth. My brother and I were half lost, so I
stopped a
young lady in a business suit (how they negotiate cobbled streets in 4"
heels
is beyond me). I excused myself and said in my atrocious accent "Wo ist
die
neuer schloss?"

There are at least three grammatical errors in those five words. Her
eyebrows
went up in astonishment at the butchery I was doing to her language. She
started
to smile, realized that that would be rude, and wiped it away, and then
politely
told me (as near as I can tell) to continue another block, turn left, and
it
would be on the right. I thanked her and we followed her directions. Found
the
bus too.

Should have said "Wo bis der Bahnhof".

"Tom S." wrote:

Should have said "Wo bis der Bahnhof".

Well, that wouldn't have helped us, since the bus was parked in front of the
"New Palace".

George Patterson
The actions taken by the New Hampshire Episcopalians (ie. inducting a gay
bishop) are an affront to Christians everywhere. I am just thankful that
the church's founder, Henry VIII, and his wife Catherine of Aragon, and his
wife Anne Boleyn, and his wife Jane Seymour, and his wife Anne of Cleves,
and his wife Katherine Howard, and his wife Catherine Parr are no longer
here to suffer through this assault on traditional Christian marriages.

Was he really from Berlin?

Paul

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
what he said was right.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:42:03 GMT, Philip Sondericker
wrote:

Berliner refers to a resident
of Berlin, just as a Hamburger is a denizen of Hamburg and a Frankfurter
resides in Frankfurt. Generally, these words are only funny to non-Germans
who haven't the slightest idea what they're talking about.

Germans simply don't form the sentence that way. The article "ein" is
superfluous in the context of identifying with a group.

Ich bin Sizilianerin.
Er ist Schweizer.
Sie sind Oesterreicher.

That's conversational German. Using the indefinite article would just
never come up in a spoken conversation, and I have participated in a
*lot* of German conversations.

You might hear the *definite* article from time to time, but it will
almost always come with a name, in the case of self-identification.

"Ich bin der Berliner, John Kennedy", and so forth.

(In the case of third person pejorative references you might not get a
name. "Er ist der Schwule da drueben," and so forth.)

Hearing "Ich bin ein Schweizer" or anything like that is akin to
hearing a non English speaker say "I go today to get milk at store."
The English speaker would use gerunds.

Rob, who knows what he's talking about

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

Robert Perkins wrote:

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:42:03 GMT, Philip Sondericker
wrote:


Berliner refers to a resident
of Berlin, just as a Hamburger is a denizen of Hamburg and a Frankfurter
resides in Frankfurt. Generally, these words are only funny to non-Germans
who haven't the slightest idea what they're talking about.


Germans simply don't form the sentence that way. The article "ein" is
superfluous in the context of identifying with a group.

Ich bin Sizilianerin.
Er ist Schweizer.
Sie sind Oesterreicher.

That's conversational German. Using the indefinite article would just
never come up in a spoken conversation, and I have participated in a
*lot* of German conversations.

You might hear the *definite* article from time to time, but it will
almost always come with a name, in the case of self-identification.

"Ich bin der Berliner, John Kennedy", and so forth.

True, but other situations where the article will appear is for emphasis
and when the term is not meant literally. For example, if I were a
politician, I would identify myself saying "Ich bin Politiker" but if
someone felt that I was acting in a politically motivated way they might
well say "Da bisst du ja ein Politiker." The latter phrase could be
translated as "You're acting like a politician." In Kennedy's case, either
of these could be justification for the inclusion of the article since he
was both emphasizing the unique nature of Berliners at the time and he
certainly wasn't speaking literally.

In any event, the phrasing is clearly not due to Kennedy directly but to
Robert Lochner, his interpreter who was educated in Berlin. And Kennedy
rehearsed the line with Willy Brandt (then Berlin mayor) just prior to his
speech. Apparently Willy saw nothing wrong with the phrasing. See:
http://clk.about.com/?zi=1/XJ&sdn=urbanlegends&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities. com%2F%7Enewgeneration%2Fberliner.htm

in article , Robert Perkins at
wrote on 11/16/03 7:31 PM:



Hearing "Ich bin ein Schweizer" or anything like that is akin to
hearing a non English speaker say "I go today to get milk at store."
The English speaker would use gerunds.


But you'd still know what that non-English speaker was talking about,
wouldn't you? That's why all these posts arguing about whether or not
Kennedy really said "jelly donut" are so silly. Everybody KNEW what he
meant.

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 05:14:12 GMT, Philip Sondericker
wrote:

But you'd still know what that non-English speaker was talking about,
wouldn't you? That's why all these posts arguing about whether or not
Kennedy really said "jelly donut" are so silly. Everybody KNEW what he
meant.

Yeah. I said as much in a followup post. Suffice to say I paid a visit
to the "W.C." after typing much of this.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card